Confused About Diagnostic Criteria

[GWhizz]

Okay... So I'm not one to debate whose trauma was worse, why one person finds one event traumatic over another etc.. I've had a hard battle myself being taken seriously and getting a correct diagnosis and official recognition.

But recently a friend posted a Facebook thread linking to her blog.. She is an attorney and basically put up a big thread about how she has been diagnosed with PTSD because the genetic imprints from her Chinese ancestors (who were prisoners of war etc) has left her with innate trauma. She also said that it was triggered by representing a rape victim wherein she was exposed to some footage about the victims alleged abuser - the nature and content of which I am unsure.

I don't dispute that watching traumatic content isn't in itself traumatising.

I am just curious as to other's opinions. I feel that the diagnosis shouldn't be too reserved but neither should it be thrown out based on apparent family tree history which, in my opinion, has little research based evidence that I'm aware of.

I'm open to all sides of discussion and I do apologise if this seems in anyway minimising. I appreciate that all individuals have different thresholds and levels of resilience.

 

[Justmehere]

The DSM requires someone to have a criterion A event. There are 4 types of criterion A events.

The fourth is this:
"Repeated or extreme indirect exposure to aversive details of the event(s), usually in the course of professional duties (e.g., first responders, collecting body parts; professionals repeatedly exposed to details of child abuse). This does not include indirect non-professional exposure through electronic media, television, movies, or pictures." From: Link Removed

She indeed could very well have PTSD from her professional role of representing a rape victim depending on how detailed the exposure and etc. usually the exposure is quite intense for an attorney representing a rape victim.

It is also possible to be traumatized and have been through criterion A event(s) and not have the specific clinical condition of PTSD.

Their is also research that shows the effects of trauma can be passed on from generation to generation. Like explained here: Dead Link Removed

That's not the same as the specific clinical condition of PTSD being passed on from generation to generation. She is misinformed to state that this would give her PTSD.

The rape case triggering her could link back to traumatic events she isn't revealing on social media. It is also possible she is taking tidbits and blowing them up to be bigger than they are.

Either way, I try to take stuff like this for its best possible intent: she is trying to dispel stigma and silence and grappel with a diagnosis she has been given. She may not understand it all very well early on, I certainly didn't.

I can really respect that it may be frustrating that she was diagnosied for PTSD based on events that are not clear, seemingly an easy task, when you have been struggling so hard to get a diagnosis yourself.

 

[BlueOrange]

The 'genetic imprint' theory sounds like garbage to me. However, the first cause of my issues is that I was raised by someone with PTSD. His explosive rage and withdrawals were life-threatening to a small child.

So I'd just follow the 'talk to therapist' path if interacting with this woman. She's probably gone through some horrible shit from someone in her family and dissociated from it because being angry with a parent who suffers explosive range can be really dangerous. While garbage theories are annoying, the consequences of confronting the garbage theory might be bad for her.

 

[joeylittle]

There is some research that has been done into whether or not trauma is 'inherited' - essentially, investigating the presence of a trauma gene or trauma mutation on the genetic code.

It's not been proven.

If the lawyer has PTSD, they are far more likely to have it from ongoing exposure to highly traumatic materials (such as direct evidence of rape, murder, extreme violence, etc) - in the same way law enforcement and others can develop PTSD through repeated exposure.

Can trauma be passed to next generation through DNA? | PBS NewsHour Extra

 

[Keming]

The key word in post traumatic stress disorder is disorder. One doesn't have PTSD because one suffered trauma. One has PTSD because the symptoms are awful enough to negatively impact one's livelihood, and those symptoms are best explained by traumatic stress. The definition of 'trauma' is largely irrelevant - what matters is the behavioral effects.

I'm loathe to defend a lawyer, but in fairness: it's possible that constant high stress damaged the amygdala, rendering it hypersensitive to stress, which would produce many symptoms of post traumatic stress disorder. Lawyer may be able to recover with a long break and therapy. Neuroplasticity is awesome.

Laywer is also a flake. Genetic behavioral imprints in mice/rats are proven, but it's largely related to procreating during a time of stress (thus passing required survival behaviors onto the next generation, because the immediate environment is dangerous). If the lawyer successfully finished law school, it's pretty indicative that she either overcame the imprint, or the imprint no longer exists. While we can argue that her stress was latent, or that her amygdala was predisposed to stress-related damage which came about from a particularly awful trial... well, skepticism mounts.

It is particularly ironic that 'lawyer' is synonymous for 'vermin' in every culture with written language.

 

[Casey_03]

I'd be skeptical of this "genetic imprint" theory. Although, whenever I encounter someone saying they have PTSD for seemingly questionable reasons like that, I tend to think that even if they don't have PTSD, they likely have some issues they are dealing with, and there's always bound to be more going on with them than I or anyone else can be aware of. So I guess I tend to give the benefit of the doubt. I wonder if it's also possible that maybe she did have some other trauma that she hasn't told anyone about or is avoiding.

 

[BlueOrange]

So, I just restrained myself from saying to someone (in another thread) "You can't have PTSD, but that event sounds terrifying, and Adjustment Disorder is serious business too." They pretty clearly had criterion A, but a lot of the rest of it didn't fit.

I don't think that they'll be harmed by this place, things that help with PTSD are good for helping prevent Adjustment from becoming PTSD. And I don't think they'll harm this place either. They're in therapy, and learning from it.

I'd be inclined to rename and reorganize the damned thing. Now that we have the theory of Structural Dissociation, I'd called PTSD 'dissociated emotional part disorder', I guess. DDNOS becomes 'dissociated emotional part (multiple parts)' and DID can stay the same.

 

[watundah]

I've also read these articles about DNA and Holocaust victims passing down trauma. I have my doubts, too. I think if trauma can alter DNA, it could pass down a propensity for anxiety and depression, but that's still not the same! So I ain't buying it.

 

[GWhizz]

You know I didn't think about it much when she posted it a few weeks ago.

But then I went back and had a closer look at the details and I just didn't get it. She said once in a while she thinks about the video recording. I just can't equate that to intrusive thoughts/memories.

I commend her bravery in gathering public support. However, the misunderstandings that I feel ensue, are kind of frustrating. To be honest, I thought about unfriending her.

I was very close to her when I worked with her in the US for a summer. Of course, no one really fully knows what lies within another, but she was never in anyway impeded by any "imprinted" trauma that I could see. And she is continuing to practice really successfully (work tasks apparently not impeded) and live a lively functional life from how she documents it online! Not to imply that PTSD renders us unfunctional. I consider myself very capable and functional. I just don't know if I could class once in a while thoughts about a recording as meeting the criteria. I have thoughts about horror movies once in a while that freak me out and so I avoid horrors altogether! And to be clear, she seemed quite intent on detailing her symptoms.

Of course, I do not know the ins and outs and probably shouldn't question it. I was just very curious because getting a diagnosis in this country is almost impossible. And I would think that you either meet all criteria or you don't. Maybe if she hadn't started with the trauma being passed on from generation to generation and then contradicting herself by concluding that she also inherited that resilience that has saved her, I would have gone for it!

 

[alis]

Like others have said, there has been research done on inter-generational trauma. I don't think from what I've read that it equates to having ptsd specifically, though. I went to a talk on it once and the guy who had written a book on it basically said that negative core-beliefs are passed down in families. In cases like holocaust survivors, residential school survivors, and so on and so forth or other traumatic experiences.

And how DNA alters to survive the experiences. In the case of the testing done on mice, basically mice were shocked with pain when they smelled a specific scent, then every time these mice smelled this scent their fear responses would come regardless of the scent, then the mice had babies, and it turns out that in the brains of the baby mice a part of their brain had developed so that it had a higher-scent capacity (im not sure the scientific term but basically so that they would be able to smell the scents at a lower intensity), and this happened sometimes when it was only one parent exposed to the traumatic shocks, and it lasted multiple generations.

I really do believe that inter-generational trauma is an actual thing that leaves younger generations more *prone* to anxiety disorders and addictions and that it can leave lasting effects. Like when you take the land and the culture and the mother-tongue and the sense of belonging in the world away from of an entire population of people of course it will have negative effects and consequences lasting generations.

So maybe the lawyer person would be more prone to ptsd or an anxiety disorder if a traumatic event had occurred in their life, if that makes sense.

Some of the stuff I've read about it seemed a little far-reached to me though. Like someones parents / grandparents getting in a fatal car accident and that being the cause of the younger persons suffering. And the younger person just needs to realize that's the cause of their hurt then they'll be magically *cured.* <<< I don't believe that, I think things are a little more complicated than that.

 

[Freedomfighter]

Have never heard about generational trauma, new to me. But any professional that has to deal with traumatic incidents, including helping victims that are faced with trauma is at risk of getting PTSD too. I have always wondered how common that is: do you guys think that therapists are prone to that? I would think so, because when I am exposed to other victims and their stories it can trigger me terribly....

 

[Friday]

If she's a criminal attorney (defense or prosecution) handling violent rape cases she most likely meets criterion A in spades. Due to the nature of handling evidence, in extreme depth, over the course of years, in addition to directly working with both victims and criminals and wrongfully accused. Many of whom will have been shredded, volatile, emotional black holes, dangerous, etc. A few of whom may have suicided as a result of either the verdict, or the stress of the trial. She's probably collected death threats, has a "nutter drawer" in her firm for all kinds of threatening & bizarre correspondence, and has likely been the victim of stalking at least once. The odds are good she's also been assaulted at least a few times.

As well as many other possible factors that come along with that branch of the judiciary (Such as friends in law enforcement, and if she hasn't lost at least one of them to violence or suicide, that it's been a close call a few times. Or doing pro bono with refugees, human rights watch, domestic violence shelters, etc.).

And all of this ^^^ ? Betcha she doesn't think twice about. Because it's just part of the job/life of being a criminal attorney. There will be hundreds, if not thousands, of "small" things, hard things, gutting things that have built up over time from law school and clerking, until the case that was one straw too much. Just like cops, paramedics, firefighters, doctors, etc.

Chinese Ancestors? :hilarious: Yeah. Well. Avoidance is a symptom of PTSD. And that one is all nice and shiny.