Confused On When I Should Stand Ground

[WillowMarie]

The other day, I had another disagreement with my best friend. He made dinner for me at my house. I told him I was challenging myself to just sit on the couch instead of trying to help or busy myself with other stuff like cleaning the kitchen/dining table or cleaning out/filling the dishwasher. I have a hard time relaxing when someone else is doing something for me, and I noticed he is able to do it when I am making dinner, so had challenged myself with that. :P

So at one point he is looking for an item, I think it was a basting stick. I described from the couch where it should be, most likely in the spatula/spoon drawer, if not, check the two drawers to the left which had the measuring cups and other miscellaneous things. After he checked just the spatula/spoon drawer, he asked me if I could help him find it. I was teasing him, what's the magic word?? Which was please because politeness is a big deal to me. He got quiet and I wasn't sure if he heard me, but I knew that he did because he looked frustrated. I didn't say anything to give him space because I knew he was getting upset about it. (I realized he has triggers of his own that set him off, like when he feels like someone is trying to control him or tell him what he should do.)

So this is where things get fuzzy because I was pretty dissociated, but either I mentioned, what's going on you look frustrated, or he mentioned he really could use the basting stick and that he was upset because I refused to look for it and he saw it as that I didn't want to help. I reminded him he had a choice, he could just say please and I would help out and that I wanted to. His response is that he didn't need to say please and that if you say please all the time, it loses its meaning. (That doesn't even sound logical to me, just a load of crap!) I kept repeating that it was about respect for me, that it is important.

And also since I have explained to him in the past that I get triggered, and sometimes my reactions may be bigger than normal because it hits something deep from my childhood, he was rationalizing it as to what was happening. He was saying he wasn't my dad right now and that he respects me. I told him I am not even that upset right now (I wasn't, more frustrated at how upset HE was getting!) and I said he seems to be getting more upset that I am. I ask him if I can tell him what I have noticed (which I have mentioned to him before) which is that he gets "triggered" in situations where he feels like people are trying to control him, that maybe he was the one making a bigger stink about it. He didn't respond to that.


Later that evening before he left for work, he told me that saying please shouldn't be a big deal to me and that he cares and respects me a lot, so it is not necessary saying the word and that doesn't mean he is being disrespectful to me. I didn't respond since he needed to leave for work, but I can't stop thinking about it. My instinct is to tell him that I deserve people saying please to me all the time and if he can't respect that, I just won't do stuff for him if he can't say it. For me, it isn't something special, it is common courtesy, even if the person knows you respect and care about them.


I guess I just wanted other peoples opinions because I always second guess myself and don't know where to lay down my boundaries or what to fight for. I always wonder if I am reacting because of trauma and how I was treated. I know respect is a huge thing for me because my dad didn't respect me or what I had to say. So when I argue with this friend, it is a trigger within itself because my dad would say he is right, I am wrong, and he didn't care/shut up if I pointed out it was truth I was right. Things with my friend are great, except when we argue and I also wonder if it is healthy for me because his argument style is so close to my dads because he is stubborn (and we are BOTH stubborn which doesn't help), except he doesn't yell/get into rage, like my dad. It just feels like I am always the one saying, okay, maybe I reacted too much, but he never gives.

Thank you for any feedback. I was going crazy yesterday with these things flying around in my head and my therapy appointment isn't until tomorrow. :P

 

[WillyKat]

I think what he's trying to say is that respect is respect, regardless what words are used or not used. I heard a judge once respond to someone in the courtroom who wasn't sure how to address him: "your honor", "judge", "sir". The judge said that the word didn't matter; it's whether there was respect behind the word.

My wife and her family have this thing that irritates me. Where I grew up, if you saw someone walking down a narrow passage and you were in the way, you just moved. You didn't need to hear them ask you to move, you could see you were blocking and got out of the way. Well, in my wife's family's culture (they're not originally from the US), the person walking has to politely ask you to step aside; otherwise, you don't move. In fact, you can keep blocking the path forever. Now I find their attitude extremely rude. But maybe they see it differently.

I guess my advice is to not worry about the word being used or not. If he's respectful and polite...that's what matters.

 

[Seasounds]

What is respectful treatment is so individual. You said politeness is important to you (asking "say please"), and that he gets triggered when any one try's to control him (e.g. asking him to "say please"). I think both of you are right: informing our friends 'how we want to be related to' is reasonable, and asking our friends to not try to control us, is reasonable.

Once I have communicated my needs, I know that my friends can choose to integrate my preferences or not. I can't make them, and in fact, if I do, it drives them away. It can create a huge relational conflict: trying to control each other.

Before I take actions to decrease my time with a friend, I look at the relationship overall; through my firend's behavior do I experience they demonstrate kindness, and respect boundaries? Is 'please' implied through their tone of voice, or do I feel 'bossed', too?

It is all so personal, how work this conflict through. Can you live with him, as he is?

 

[Deleted member 1860]

I think you're being overly controlling and nit-picky. You're acting like a parent who is trying to "teach" a child to always say "please". The only thing is that your friend isn't a child and you're not his parent!

In the end, words are just words. If the action is there and he is showing respect, then why demand a word is used?

I get a vision in my head of you taunting him by saying "what is the magic word?!?...." Ok yeah, that's cute ONCE, but then it just becomes annoying and manipulative. Don't get me wrong, I've said it before, BUT, I don't continue to say it. If the person doesn't say "please ", I give them what they're asking for anyway. (I would only say this to someone who already respects me anyway.)

I think you need to work on your need to control others. Maybe your friend doesn't have such a big issue with feeling controlled. Maybe it's mostly you? (Nobody LIKES to feel controlled.) You've exhibited controlling behavior and throw the blame on him when he doesn't cave to your demands. Kind of sounds like my narcissist mother to be honest.

 

[DMerish]

This is how I see the dilemma . . .

Most people prefer to be treated courteously; however, being treated with courtesy has a caveat . . . a condition, if you will, that the parties (you and the other person) agree on the definition of what courtesy is. This is also true for respect. It sounds like you equate the word "please" with courtesy and the expression of respect. In my mind, these two concepts are different things. Examples:

"Do this" (spoken to someone because I want them to do something)
"Please do this" (please added to soften the demand)
"Would you (with or without please) do this?" (A request, provides the listener with the option to do it or not)

Which manner of speaking conveys courtesy and respect???

I have three sons. #1 is a very laid back generous person and somewhat emotionally sensitive. He'll always come to the aid of someone who nicely asks him to do something/anything . . . But do not tell him, in even a round-about way, to take out the trash. He'll just run the other way. #2 has a good balance of acting from head and heart. He prefers to be told what to do directly, i.e. "Here, take out the trash." Off he'll go without a qualm. #3 is a bit more of a thinker. He does not like to be told or asked to do something. He prefers to figure things out for himself. With him I might simply say, "The trash is getting full." Usually, but not always, he'll figure what I want and take out the trash when he wants to without my saying another word.

I'm usually pretty good at keeping their preferences in mind when I'm with them individually, but when events like Thanksgiving comes along and we're all together I'll sometimes get mixed up, lol!

In the situation you described there is no "right" or "wrong" - simply two people working out how best to make the relationship comfortable for each person individually as well as together. That being so, try to work towards WIN-WIN . . .

 

[Hashi]

If I'm honest, it sounds to me like you set one boundary then stood your ground over a different issue.

You said you had challenged yourself not to get up and help while he prepared dinner. If I understand correctly, when he had looked in only one of the three places you mentioned, he asked you to help. You could perhaps have stayed on the couch, checked that he'd looked in all three places, and if not then asked him to do that. It sounds like you went down a big side track instead, which raked up a lot of other stuff.

I've recently learnt a new word in therapy - displacement, which I was doing over something. Your post reminded me of what I was doing. Instead of staying with one thing, I moved over to another but took some of the unexamined emotions from the first thing with me. Which meant that to avoid the discomfort of the first thing, I got into an unpleasant distraction with the second.

Maybe this isn't anything to do with what was happening for you - if not, then please disregard it. I would still feel that your original intention seems to have got completely lost, though, and wonder what happened to it?

 

[radicalgratitude]

Personally, when I feel patronized, I get really angry. I don't like to be talked to like I am a child. So if someone asked me, "What's the magic word?" they might be joking, but I would be furious.

You were working really hard at setting your own boundaries and I commend you for that. However, by insisting that your friend say "Please," you were overstepping his boundaries.

It actually sounded manipulative to me:

And also since I have explained to him in the past that I get triggered, and sometimes my reactions may be bigger than normal because it hits something deep from my childhood, he was rationalizing it as to what was happening. He was saying he wasn't my dad right now and that he respects me.

We own our triggers. It is impossible to avoid triggering someone. Instead of manipulating others to change their words/behavior, we can work to decrease our reactions to the triggers. Think of it as exposure therapy. You can begin to see that there are other ways of showing respect than using the word "please."

Rest assured, I am not judging you. There was a period of time in my recovery when I would say similar manipulative things. Fortunately I had some good friends who weren't afraid to call me out on it and I am still friends with them today.

 

[WillowMarie]

Thank you everyone for your feedback. :) It took me a while before I could come back and respond because I was getting upset reading the responses, but I did ask everyone for their honesty. So thank you.