General Confused

[shimmerz]

And fair to ask us not to make assumptions that you know what we want or need if we haven't told you.

Step 1. Always ask first

"treat me like nothing is wrong"

2. Have the conversation of 'when do you want me to treat you like nothing is wrong? When I did that XYZ time, that totally didn't work'
If they don't know or can't figure it out, that becomes a problem for the therapist. It can be worked on.

3.

does not communicate all this, then she has to bear the responsibility in this situation.

Well, no, that is when communication on the supporter side needs to happen. People with PTSD are fragmented in different ways sometimes. What feels right in one situation (treat me like an adult when I am around the kids) may be counter productive in another (act like a 4 year old after triggered). Always expect, in my opinion, that when someone is triggered they aren't in adult mode. Do not treat them as such.

if coms are not clear then people die. BUT due to his PTSD (and judging from the scars on his head several undiagnosed TBIs) he also loses words

OMG that is a complete mind screw for both of you. Mostly you. I am so sorry. Has to feel impossible.

 

[Sweetpea76]

If I ever treated my vet like he wasn't a fully functioning adult there would be utter hell to pay. Even when triggered... actually, especially when triggered.

 

[Sighs]

@shimmerz - unfortunately it leads to meltdowns and blowups on a regular basis!

Last night we had been talking about Dressage Tests and I had said I would dig out some of my old scores so he could see how they are marked. Then he said "Have you got out those reports?" so I went and got the old Dressage scores. He blew up because he was talking about his spinal MRI reports that he wanted to take to his new chiropractor. BUT there had been NO discussion of the chiro for literally hours. Like 7 or 8 hours.

Cue screaming (first him then me), crying (just me) and a ruined night (both of us). Sigh!

 

[Fadeaway]

@Sweetpea76 I think that is one of the differences between combat PTSD and those of us with childhood trauma.

 

[shimmerz]

actually, especially when triggered.

Isn't this process supposed to be part of therapy though? I am trying to understand how anyone who is triggered and metes out consequences to others for their own irrational behaviour isn't just not taking responsibility for themselves and their actions? That can turn abusive - quickly.

Boundaries are about controlling your own behavior, not anybody else's.

So whether, as you say, the responsibility is on her or not (back to OP issue) if she is not helping herself and expects others to tow her line when triggered, I feel like that is a therapy issue and a deal breaker when supporting someone with PTSD. Nobody should be towing a triggered line. I don't care who you are.

 

[Friday]

Isn't this process supposed to be part of therapy though? I am trying to understand how anyone who is triggered and metes out consequences to others for their own irrational behaviour isn't just not taking responsibility for themselves and their actions? That can turn abusive - quickly

So when you’re triggered to the point of your head/heart being in a different time, you’re an incompetent 4yo... when I’m triggered I’m a pissed off, highly trained 19yo, with lives on the line and a job to do.

A 4yo has a lot fewer options when upset with someone... they can throw a tantrum, run away, refuse to talk or look at the person, or hide.

A 19yo in command of men? Whether a measly little 3man fire team, a flight crew, or a squad (clearly, I was enlisted, officers have much larger units they boss around)... has a whooooole lot more options at their disposal. And barking orders, chewing people out, dressing them down? Is the lowest level of them. You’re being nice using those options.

<<< That those are the wrong options 20 years later at the breakfast table? Doesn’t mean you’re not taking responsibility for your actions. Being more competent in the moment (because you don’t revert to being a 4yo, but an adult version of yourself, in life or death circumstances) doesn’t actually mean your head is in the game. Nor does it mean if you’re more aware of your actions and their consequences, that you’re more likely to be abusive. (If you weren’t an abusive prick at 19, getting stuck in 19yo headspace doesn’t automagically make you abusive today) It just means, in the moment, you’re using your skill set that’s available to you. Whether that’s as a 4yo kid or a 19yo corporal.

Sure, it can become abusive, because overreactions always can. As can misreading a situation.

Make sense?

@Fadeaway On the nose!

 

[Friday]

My sufferer was in a 10 year relationship that involved her being raped, domestic violence

Has it been less than 5 years?

Because even without PTSD in the mix, you’ve only got a roughly even chance at getting right back into another abusive relationship after 2 years, before that nearly all get right back into another abusive relationship, and if you want the stats to say “nearly all” get into HEALTHY relationships? You’re looking at waiting roughly 5 years.

Adding in PTSD just makes it even more complicated.

I am confused on how after all this therapy she isn't ready to have a friendship/ relationship

A month of therapy isn’t “all this therapy”... any more than a quarter of university is “all this school, why aren’t they graduating already???”

It’s the very beginning. 10 years of rape & violence doesn’t get sorted in a month.

Even a year in is still very early days.

All of her completely sucking at even the basics of friendship? Is right in line with exactly what she’s told you... she’s not ready to be in a relationship.

 

[shimmerz]

Make sense?

No, not to me. I do admit however, that I have never walked in army boots. Although I am not certain that really matters.

From my perspective, regardless of the source of trauma, trauma works the same. If I am going off on my kids due to PTSD stuff, those kids need to be not exposed to inappropriate, confusing, or harsh behaviour aimed at them. That needs to be hammered out between the adults who hold responsibility over those kids.

If a sufferer has lost track of the current time, place and situation enough to go off on a bunch of kids and my wife as if they were army men, I feel as if that needs to be dealt with ASAP in therapy. That can only happen through the acknowledgement of the sufferer that the problem is with them -- which is how I see taking responsibility while suffering from PTSD. Any kind of PTSD.

 

[master z]

Has it been less than 5 years?

Because even without PTSD in the mix, you’ve only got a roughly even c...

I apologize for my ignorance and impatience.

 

[Friday]

Always expect, in my opinion, that when someone is triggered they aren't in adult mode. Do not treat them as such

Apologies... I should have quoted the above piece, along with the other piece I did quote.

My point was that when someone with adult trauma (combat, domestic violence, etc.) is triggered... it’s not like they’re rational whilst someone with childhood trauma is not rational... just because they’re still in an adult mindset.

Treating someone with childhood trauma like a child -and placing the same expectations on them as you would a child- instead of a fully functioning adult may well be soothing to someone with childhood trauma. Treating combat vet like a child will probably just piss them off. Meanwhile someone with domestic violence it’s likely to either reinforce the triggered state they’re already in, or trigger them further (or both), because infantalizing your victim is practically cannon in DV.

One of those same symptom kinds of things... they’re triggered... but the trauma type and personality is really going to shape both how it expresses & the best way to meet it from the outside.

- No way on planet earth for supporters to know what that is, as Sweetpea says.
- If they don’t know themselves, that’s something to be worked out in therapy, as you say.
- Regardless of what happens whilst triggered, the sufferer is responsible for that / not the people around them, as I think we all are saying.

the supporter cannot be held responsible for not meeting needs if the needs are not clearly communicated to them

 

[Never_falter2]

Question @Friday: But what do you do when the combat vet (triggered or not) does something extremely stupid like we all sometimes do?
I have actually „send him back to bed“ , I have „made him eat“ and I have told him to „stop being so stupid“. Actually I told him that once when he was very triggered because of his germ phobia and thought we were mega contaminated because one of the kids vomited... and acting irrational and I was angry and acting not rational too. So I yelled at him something like „Guess what, so there is vomit. You are not going to die from it, so stop being stupid and stop creating extra work for me“ and I feel extremely mean but it worked.
And made him eat, send him back to bed, things like this. Typically I am not mean, typically I just hug him and patiently tell him I am worried and sometimes it works.

 

[shimmerz]

it’s not like they’re rational whilst someone with childhood trauma is not rational... just because they’re still in an adult mindset.

For fear of really derailing with this side topic, this will be my last response on this issue in this thread. No disrespect intended.

Just because someone was an adult and a very functioning adult prior to their trauma, as I was, it is my opinion that I am not certain why it matters pissing off a combat vet. Lots of times people on this board get pissed off. There isn't much tolerance for it and people are told to go figure it out. Not really certain why a combat vet sitting at a table is much different. Their trigger -- they need to figure it out without yelling and screaming at others. To me, that lack of rationality is them acting like a child and not a responsible adult.

Treating combat vet like a child will probably just piss them off.

Okay, unless we take this conversation elsewhere, I am out.