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Darwin And Pts.
- Post starter Survivor2Thriver
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CrazyHorse
Gold Member
I do not get how the example with the organisms relates to PTSD. Is the 'scapegoat organism' supposed to resemble a human being with PTSD? And what is a 'scapegoat organism' exactly?
If it is an anaolgy of abuse at the human level, where the 'scapegoat organism' represents the one subjected to abuse, I do not see the connection between being subjected to abuse and being a scapegoat. Allthough, being treated as a scapegoat is surely a form of abuse. But that is as far as the analogy goes in my oppinion.
If it is an anaolgy of abuse at the human level, where the 'scapegoat organism' represents the one subjected to abuse, I do not see the connection between being subjected to abuse and being a scapegoat. Allthough, being treated as a scapegoat is surely a form of abuse. But that is as far as the analogy goes in my oppinion.
D
Deleted member 24866
I can only hope for myself to be one of the 50% (of those with sexual trauma) that get to recover but I will always know where I have been, and I can't really be the one in control but at least I have hope growing in tools and network. Never the less I know my past and some of the possibility of my mind, even if I can extend times it is progress and I will take blessing where ever I can find it. Maybe that's similar to your intent..?
Also for me in what I term integration find it empowering to advocate in order to bring change and that gives me purpose and healing through it as well as continuity.
Also for me in what I term integration find it empowering to advocate in order to bring change and that gives me purpose and healing through it as well as continuity.
@Survivor2Thriver I think what you're saying highlights the problem of refusing to make a distinction between PTS and PTSD.
PTS is a natural response to trauma that is found throughout the animal kingdom (including humans). It's the time during which trauma is processed and we allow the necessary physiological and psychological healing reactions such as shaking, re-enactment through play, running around to burn off excess fight energy etc.
PTSD is when our "evolved" human minds interfere with that process for whatever reason. Usually because the human race has created environments where we can't process the trauma naturally afterwards - for example, because of our age, dependency, extent of previous psychological damage, economic situation, the pressures of our culture etc, we're unable to get into a safe situation and allow ourselves to heal. We continue to be affected by the trauma, and possibly experience additional trauma as well. It can still be processed, but that processing is now of a different extent and nature because the trauma is entrenched.
If you don't make a distinction between trauma being processed at the natural time (PTS) and trauma having become entrenched because it wasn't (PTSD), then I think you're in denial. Whatever you want to call "not-entrenched trauma" and "entrenched trauma", they are two different things.
The "entrenched" situation is not a natural advantage to the species. Processing trauma quickly and naturally, then returning to normal functioning is an advantage. Suppressing the trauma, for whatever reason, and then trying to function with depression, anxiety, impaired judgement is not a Darwinian advantage. Particularly given the high proportion of "mutations" among us (using Darwin's word, meaning some of the species developing a new characteristic) which include deciding not to have children, self harming and suicide.
Balance and selflessness? Not me.
I completely believe in healing, and I think a change in consciousness is part of that. So is the down-to-earth footwork of awareness, acceptance, grounding, coping, protecting ourselves, learning social and self-management skills, and processing, processing, processing.
I don't think we're advantaged by experiencing trauma, or that the human race is. I don't think our "being healed" as such is what's important to the energy in the world. I think our process of healing is what we contribute - the work we do along the way.
@Survivor2Thriver, I notice in your posts what seems to me a token hop, skip and a jump through the basic healing work with all the emphasis on a different consciousness and enlightenment. I don't believe we can get to the light before spending the time we have to in the darkness. I think saying PTS instead of PTSD and calling our childhood responses to trauma an evolutionary success, is refusing to accept some of the necessary darkness.
PTS is a natural response to trauma that is found throughout the animal kingdom (including humans). It's the time during which trauma is processed and we allow the necessary physiological and psychological healing reactions such as shaking, re-enactment through play, running around to burn off excess fight energy etc.
PTSD is when our "evolved" human minds interfere with that process for whatever reason. Usually because the human race has created environments where we can't process the trauma naturally afterwards - for example, because of our age, dependency, extent of previous psychological damage, economic situation, the pressures of our culture etc, we're unable to get into a safe situation and allow ourselves to heal. We continue to be affected by the trauma, and possibly experience additional trauma as well. It can still be processed, but that processing is now of a different extent and nature because the trauma is entrenched.
If you don't make a distinction between trauma being processed at the natural time (PTS) and trauma having become entrenched because it wasn't (PTSD), then I think you're in denial. Whatever you want to call "not-entrenched trauma" and "entrenched trauma", they are two different things.
The "entrenched" situation is not a natural advantage to the species. Processing trauma quickly and naturally, then returning to normal functioning is an advantage. Suppressing the trauma, for whatever reason, and then trying to function with depression, anxiety, impaired judgement is not a Darwinian advantage. Particularly given the high proportion of "mutations" among us (using Darwin's word, meaning some of the species developing a new characteristic) which include deciding not to have children, self harming and suicide.
Balance and selflessness? Not me.
I completely believe in healing, and I think a change in consciousness is part of that. So is the down-to-earth footwork of awareness, acceptance, grounding, coping, protecting ourselves, learning social and self-management skills, and processing, processing, processing.
I don't think we're advantaged by experiencing trauma, or that the human race is. I don't think our "being healed" as such is what's important to the energy in the world. I think our process of healing is what we contribute - the work we do along the way.
@Survivor2Thriver, I notice in your posts what seems to me a token hop, skip and a jump through the basic healing work with all the emphasis on a different consciousness and enlightenment. I don't believe we can get to the light before spending the time we have to in the darkness. I think saying PTS instead of PTSD and calling our childhood responses to trauma an evolutionary success, is refusing to accept some of the necessary darkness.
Hi all,
I like to see pts as a coping/protection mechanism deployed when a trauma makes us feel weaker than we actually are.
If you think of the survival of the fittest in the animal world it is a survival for food, water and territory and breeding. Of course the strongest will find food, water, food and territory,. Their strength is from instinct to survive and also depends on their health.
But for people, we have formed other survival tactics. IT is not a simple battle of wits or strength until the other one backs down and goes to find water or food elsewhere or starve. Nor do animals have weapons of mass destruction or money to fight over or give more weight.
Animals adapt to their surroundings rather than try to change it or hate it. They have souls and feelings but do not think of things in the past or the future but in the present only.
Some people are stuck in the past, letting it take over their whole being stopping them from moving forward or dealing with the present. Some people fear the future or what might happen instead of focusing on the present.
What ever happens in life we all have a survival instinct but sometime events and trauma can shake this and make us doubt ourselves and the world around us.
Does this happen in the animal world? who knows really.
Best wishes
Saffy :)
I like to see pts as a coping/protection mechanism deployed when a trauma makes us feel weaker than we actually are.
If you think of the survival of the fittest in the animal world it is a survival for food, water and territory and breeding. Of course the strongest will find food, water, food and territory,. Their strength is from instinct to survive and also depends on their health.
But for people, we have formed other survival tactics. IT is not a simple battle of wits or strength until the other one backs down and goes to find water or food elsewhere or starve. Nor do animals have weapons of mass destruction or money to fight over or give more weight.
Animals adapt to their surroundings rather than try to change it or hate it. They have souls and feelings but do not think of things in the past or the future but in the present only.
Some people are stuck in the past, letting it take over their whole being stopping them from moving forward or dealing with the present. Some people fear the future or what might happen instead of focusing on the present.
What ever happens in life we all have a survival instinct but sometime events and trauma can shake this and make us doubt ourselves and the world around us.
Does this happen in the animal world? who knows really.
Best wishes
Saffy :)
BloomInWinter
VIP Member
Please remember to keep comments on the topic and not engage in personal attacks. There is a big difference between comments on someone's words and commenting on who they are as a person. This first is acceptable, the latter violates forum rules.
Suppressing trauma could in fact be extremely advantageous in lots of situations. It depends upon the available alternatives.
From an evolutionary standpoint, there can be a large difference between a creature's most "adaptive" response to a situation and the creature's good quality of life.
Everyone on this list has access to the internet, for instance, and almost all can research ptsd, get some sort of therapy, etc. Something that is terrible but very true is that there are millions and millions of human beings who are just as wonderful as all of you, who have a traumatic injury/disorder, but absolutely no help from anyone who understands these issues.
In standard evolution, evolutionary success -- called an organism's "fitness", "cares" (wrong wording but trying to be clear) about number of successful offspring (children) of the organism (person), and also reproductive success of kids related to the person. Our quality of life is unimportant to the number of genes that survive, except insofar as how quality of life affects the number of our genes going forward into the future (which it certainly can to varying extents). (It's more complicated than this but it's a whole field of study, and I'm 20 years out of date with it...then there are also "memes"...)
So, from an evolutionary standpoint, the ability to deal with trauma by dissociation and other "problematic" methods, could be adaptive if it helps a person in terrible circumstances survive, reproduce, raise offspring, etc. in situations where there is no good help to live a "better" life... i.e. where the traumatized person's quality of life approaches that of a non-traumatized person, they can learn not to dissociate, heal in many ways...
A given human ability to deal with traumas can't be perfect for all situations; generally, for a given ability to evolve, it generally needs to have been beneficial in the past for whatever our ancestors experienced, or to be strongly correlated with another ability that was beneficial. There is also some randomness involved. So, pointing out that some of our responses to our traumas are not beneficial, doesn't rule out that those responses, or perhaps the abilities to have those responses, were/are beneficial in lots of other circumstances, and did evolve.
It's way more complicated than this, because our genetically-based abilities are influenced so strongly by our environment (upbringing, culture, scientific understandings of trauma) -- which has changed greatly over the last hundreds of years...
I prefer to focus on quality of life, being a human myself, who has empathy... Darwinian arguments are in a related but separate world for me.
This topic makes me hope that treatments for trauma become much more widely available in many countries where trauma is very widespread. We can't do everything, and the world's complexity is staggering; I'd also love for animals to be spared trauma, yet I feed my cats food made in factory farms... We can do the best we can.
From an evolutionary standpoint, there can be a large difference between a creature's most "adaptive" response to a situation and the creature's good quality of life.
Everyone on this list has access to the internet, for instance, and almost all can research ptsd, get some sort of therapy, etc. Something that is terrible but very true is that there are millions and millions of human beings who are just as wonderful as all of you, who have a traumatic injury/disorder, but absolutely no help from anyone who understands these issues.
In standard evolution, evolutionary success -- called an organism's "fitness", "cares" (wrong wording but trying to be clear) about number of successful offspring (children) of the organism (person), and also reproductive success of kids related to the person. Our quality of life is unimportant to the number of genes that survive, except insofar as how quality of life affects the number of our genes going forward into the future (which it certainly can to varying extents). (It's more complicated than this but it's a whole field of study, and I'm 20 years out of date with it...then there are also "memes"...)
So, from an evolutionary standpoint, the ability to deal with trauma by dissociation and other "problematic" methods, could be adaptive if it helps a person in terrible circumstances survive, reproduce, raise offspring, etc. in situations where there is no good help to live a "better" life... i.e. where the traumatized person's quality of life approaches that of a non-traumatized person, they can learn not to dissociate, heal in many ways...
A given human ability to deal with traumas can't be perfect for all situations; generally, for a given ability to evolve, it generally needs to have been beneficial in the past for whatever our ancestors experienced, or to be strongly correlated with another ability that was beneficial. There is also some randomness involved. So, pointing out that some of our responses to our traumas are not beneficial, doesn't rule out that those responses, or perhaps the abilities to have those responses, were/are beneficial in lots of other circumstances, and did evolve.
It's way more complicated than this, because our genetically-based abilities are influenced so strongly by our environment (upbringing, culture, scientific understandings of trauma) -- which has changed greatly over the last hundreds of years...
I prefer to focus on quality of life, being a human myself, who has empathy... Darwinian arguments are in a related but separate world for me.
This topic makes me hope that treatments for trauma become much more widely available in many countries where trauma is very widespread. We can't do everything, and the world's complexity is staggering; I'd also love for animals to be spared trauma, yet I feed my cats food made in factory farms... We can do the best we can.
BloomInWinter
VIP Member
Merriam-Webster definition of "Disorder: a mental or bodily condition marked primarily by sufficient disorganization of personality, mind, and emotions to seriously impair the normal psychological functioning of the individual—called also mental illness."
The vast array of symptoms and altered functioning means the word disorder is accurate. Many of our parents and grandparents generation suffered terribly for lack of medicine having enough research and evidence to give a name to this diagnosis so it could receive proper treatment modalities.
Indeed, even in the 70's, people were being locked up for life in terrible conditions in mental institutions because of the symptoms from their PTS and PTSD. This was especially true of women, whose lives were wasted being institutionalized. All it took was a husband claiming for his wife to be hysterical to lock her away forever.
It took the hard work, dedication, an differing of many medical professionals, relatives, advocates, activists, and sufferers to finally achieve the victory to label this a disorder and not some moral failing, weakness, or demonic possession.
That we have so much help and information available to us that we can even spend time contemplating the term instead of being locked away in filthy conditions as in the recent past is a privilege that sufferers didn't have until the last 25 years or so.
Criticism of the term seems a poor tribute for the hard work of those who achieved the options we have available to us now.
The vast array of symptoms and altered functioning means the word disorder is accurate. Many of our parents and grandparents generation suffered terribly for lack of medicine having enough research and evidence to give a name to this diagnosis so it could receive proper treatment modalities.
Indeed, even in the 70's, people were being locked up for life in terrible conditions in mental institutions because of the symptoms from their PTS and PTSD. This was especially true of women, whose lives were wasted being institutionalized. All it took was a husband claiming for his wife to be hysterical to lock her away forever.
It took the hard work, dedication, an differing of many medical professionals, relatives, advocates, activists, and sufferers to finally achieve the victory to label this a disorder and not some moral failing, weakness, or demonic possession.
That we have so much help and information available to us that we can even spend time contemplating the term instead of being locked away in filthy conditions as in the recent past is a privilege that sufferers didn't have until the last 25 years or so.
Criticism of the term seems a poor tribute for the hard work of those who achieved the options we have available to us now.
- Post starter
- #22
Survivor2Thriver
Gold Member
Thank you. I hear you! I had that same thought for years. I kept coming back to there has to be more. A better reason. Do people really understand the world and self awareness at the same levels? No. They don't. It's the difference between sympathy and empathy. We live in a precarious world. Ask a 911 survivor. Look at the Boston marathon returnees. Think they'll scan crowds differently? Can a therapist truly understand your pain and effectively help you? People only connect if they're on the same level.
The human spirit is resilient. Look at war torn countries. Who can forget the images of children still playing while a war is going on around them? Can an American child fathom the life of third world countries? Oppression itself creates compassion. Two extremes colliding. That's beautiful.
It's all about adaptability.
The weak will go to war....
- Post starter
- #23
Survivor2Thriver
Gold Member
My friend was trying to simplify the problem. His suggestion as to the reason for asholeishness in the world today is innate.
In a world constantly changing I'm happily challenging his theory. :)
- Post starter
- #24
Survivor2Thriver
Gold Member
THANK YOU! :joyful:
Hashi I refuse to allow the bastards to get me down. I refuse to allow their craziness to seep into my life. IMO that's what the D in PTS stands for. I will defend my sanity and address my symptoms of PTS. :)
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