Discussing The Colorodo Shooting & Gun Laws

[Philippa]

You make some good points loner, in reference to how cars, which are actually weapons as well as transport even though most people do not see them in that light, kill people all the time, but no one would take you seriously if you tried to lobby for them to be taken off the market...they symbolize freedom to most westerners...just like guns symbolize power to defend yourself if necessary for people in the States.

It's only because we in Australia have never had to think about any of this stuff, that it is so far removed from anything we can contemplate, but you're absolutely right when you say that there are some very ill individuals out there, and they aren't seeking help! I lived with a man for a year who confessed to me that he wanted to take a rifle and go on a shooting spree at the local shopping centre, he was that fed up with the human race.

If there were no guns, people with intent to hurt, maim and kill would simply find another way to do it!

I've been to mental asylums that are closed down now and only open to the tourist population, and for educational purposes, and people back in the turn of the century were fashioning the most elaborate weapons you can think of, and they definitely had no access to guns.

I did used to think the same way as people here are expressing though, about guns, and I can't say I'd feel very comfortable having one, but with proper training, it doesn't need to be an issue, and I'd say it's better to have one and not need it than to not have one and need it.

Personally though, I think you have to find a helathy balance between walking around with a weapon constantly hyper vigilant to attackers, and hand on the trigger, and holding a relaxed stance, not expecting it, but ready incase it comes...because people like that are out there, and wishing that the world was free from guns is quite...well, wishful thinking. Humans have always had weapons, and that's not going to go away even if all the guns get banned and destroyed.

It is scary of course, but I think if I were living in America right now, there is no way I would walk around without a gun knowing that there are so many people out there who are unstable and who do have them. That would be very stupid.

Having said that, I'm totally happy I live in Melbourne, and whilst I know there are people walking around with concealed weapons right here, that they bought in the underground black market, I'd like to think there are not as many as those who carry nothing. I stay away from areas that attract people like that, and don't mingle with drug dealers anymore. I'm still aware that Australia is becoming more and more like America every day though, and we have already started having stories of drive by shootings here, though they are not anywhere near as prevalent as in the States.

I'd like to think it will stay at this low rate, but that probably isn't the truth of things. It's scary. That's life.

 

[Philippa]

I definitely agree with you anthony in saying that there needs to be some sort of sane restrictions in place there. If a person feels they want or need a gun, then that is their right, as stated in American constitution, but when they start collecting a whole arsenal, adn no one says anything or even batts an eyelid, there is something VERY wrong there.

 

[anthony]

Whilst cars are a valid argument and relevant in some context as weapons, again the difference is that there are age restrictions placed on who can drive and they must endure driver training and sit a theory and practical test of the applicable laws before driving on the road with others.

Yes, there will always be a minority who drive unlicensed, which there would equally be that minority if transferred to weapons.

 

[shell]

For me, it's not just a gun issue, it's a reflection on the acceptance of violence in society today, where the "in" tv game is where the player kills others.

It doesn't matter that I won't let my 11year have Modern warfare or Call of duty. He just chooses to play at one of his mates where it is perfectly acceptable for their child to play MA 15+ killing games.

Children are becoming so desensitized to violence, that it's amusing to fight, to hurt others, to film it and place it for all to see. People are becoming much more accepting of violence in films, and in society in general. When did it become acceptable for our children to "kill" human images for fun, it doesn't matter what the rating says, if parents aren't made to prevent children from watching them.

Add mental illness to that equation, where you have been spending hours, blowing away people on a screen, and what do you get. One day they grow up.

 

[Philippa]

Yes, there are tests and training involved for that...and still, after a short period of having their license a significant proportion of the population get arrogant...and start thinking they can speed and it won't matter, and then they start drinking and driving, and think that it's ok (especially in melbourne), and then they end up killing someone without meaning to, and walk around without a scratch, and have to live with it the rest of their lives.

Drink drivers have their licenses revoked...for a while. Then they can apply to have it back. If you say that once a gun user is found to be irresponsable, they should have their piece taken away...then the same should be said for drink drivers who can easily go and "repent' to someone and get their licence back...and then go onto kill someone later down the track.

I know there are differences...but I'm sure you can also see the correlation here.

I'm not trying to turn this into a discussion about drivers, but I wanted to bring awareness to this point in the discussion about gun control laws in the U.S, as I think we sometimes neglect to make that correlation here in australia.

 

[Philippa]

I think it has always been part of human history that people like violence.

People were watching slaves get torn apart in roman times, for entertainment. I agree that these things tend to de-sensitize our kids to violence...but even if video games weren't so popular, they'd still like violence.

I think it needs to be accepted that violence is a part of being human. We strive to be better than that, but violence is in all of us, and it's useful if we need to defend ourselves...and I do agree that they are being overly bombarded with violence these days, and it does have an effect. I'm just saying, that people have always been violent.

 

[anthony]

after a short period of having their license a significant proportion of the population get arrogant...

I think that is an exaggeration... and more like it is a minority who change. Confidence is not arrogance. I would expect drivers to become more confident with experience, which is a good thing IMHO. Arrogance is a little different by definition.

Drink drivers have their licenses revoked...for a while. Then they can apply to have it back.

I quite honestly couldn't agree more with you there. Speeding is one thing... drink driving or drug driving... if you get caught, then lose your license for 5 years. It is a right, not a privilege IMHO.

 

[Philippa]

I think that is an exaggeration... and more like it is a minority who change. Confidence is not arrogance. I would expect drivers to become more confident with experience, which is a good thing IMHO. Arrogance is a little different by definition.

I think confidence is a natural progression yes, but I also think that there are many many people on the roads who I would question whether they are acting from confidence or arrogance. I'm having a hard time believing you wouldn't see people like this as well...but hey, we live in different realities I guess.

I'm not saying it's a majority of people who do change and become arrogant, and I think there are many people who do consider others on the road, and not just themselves...but I've seen more scenarios than I can count, where that hasn't been the case. Maybe I'm just seeing the bad (like everyone tells me.:p)

I think especially when young people get out there, and have just gotten their licences, they can get a bit arrogant with it, and think that nothing will happen if they push those laws to suit themselves. I have a very responsable friend who is a total road rager when she gets behind the wheel. It's like her personality changes.

Again, I know it's not everyone.

I quite honestly couldn't agree more with you there. Speeding is one thing... drink driving or drug driving... if you get caught, then lose your license for 5 years. It is a right, not a privilege IMHO.

Do you think it should be the same with gun laws then? Lose it for 5 years and then be able to take up arms again?

 

[anthony]

I'm having a hard time believing you wouldn't see people like this as well...but hey, we live in different realities I guess.

No, not different realities, simply I do not agree there is a majority.

I'm not saying it's a majority of people who do change and become arrogant

Ok, using your words, you said:

a significant proportion of the population get arrogant

To me that reads, a significant proportion of the population equals a majority, not a minority. Minorities are not significant in proportion, hence they're a minority.

Just putting out my interpretation of your words.

 

[Philippa]

OK, I guess that's where we differ somewhat in our interpretations.

When I say 'significant' I don't think it means the majority...I just consider it to be more than just nothing, and therefore worth mentioning.

Whether it is the majority or the minority isn't really the point...it happens, and I think it is fairly safe to say that when it comes to young people, once they get their licences, and have been on the road for a while, yes, it builds their confidence, but it can also make them arrogant as well...and not just the young people, anyone who has had a licence for a while and thinks nothing bad can ever happen to them...which is the majority of the human race, by the way.

Melbourne seems to have an exhorbitant number of people who think that driving drunk is no big deal. I went out with one guy who thought this way (not for long) and have heard many people express this very casually here.

Cars are dangerous...that's all I'm saying. They may not have the intent to kill...but they do...just like guns do.

 

[Philippa]

And, of course, it's the people behind the guns/cars/whatever that are really the ones causing the damage.

 

[intothelight]

I have grown up and lived around people who have had guns for all of my life. In some ways there is more focus on guns and there are more restrictions, yet the violence increases. I really don't know if the problem is guns themselves or the changing values of our society.

I can't rationalize the sale and procurement of an automatic weapon. There is not reason for this type of fire arm except for military use. The general population has no reason to be able to obtain and own a weapon like this. But they are out there and can be obtained easily through underground markets.

But for rifles and shot guns, there are many who hunt and use these weapons in their daily lives. In rural areas having a gun can be a necessity as there isn't much that gets rid of coyotes and aggressive crosses (coyote/dog mix) other than a bullet. Hand guns in the general population are pretty much used for a sport or a sense of security. Makes we wonder why we all have to be so afraid.

Thing is, there are guns everywhere and honestly, I don't think gun control is an answer. People who follow the rules, focus on safety, and registration are not the problem. It is too easy to get one outside normal distribution channels and no one has control over anyone's behavior. Those intent on violence and mayhem will create it.

Is society more violent? Are people more savage? Or has there always been that element and guns are just the means to carry out acts of violence and savagery? I really don't know. I just know that I have been on both sides, where guns were used in a proper manner and where they were used improperly. All I know is the guns were the same, it was the people and their intent that were different.

I'd say that stricter regulations, increased penalties, and increased enforcement will be nothing but a huge failure. Look at the "war" on drugs and crime? There is something else at work here, and no one wants to address the root causes. Personally, I think the breakdown in values, poverty, huge gaps in wealth, lack of education and lack of opportunity lie at the root of many of societies problems.