News Doctor-Assisted Death For Those Living With Ptsd

[Neverthesame]

We just have bought into the story that the homeless somehow deserve to freeze.be beaten.starve.go without prescription meds and medical help.are harassed.and generally treated in worse ways than a stray dog

If we all are so brainwashed, why waste taxpayer money for a problem that will sort itself out by attrition sooner or later?
What makes you think a government that doesn't give a shit about the homeless safe behind a wall of apathetic citizens wouldn't just begin dismantling the current aid infrastructure?
Why bother with a shelter when you just have to leave them out in the cold long enough?
Why feed them when Secobarbital is supposed to be taken on an empty stomach? The only extra "investment" needed is a packet of Gravol so the homeless person doesn't vomit all over themselves before they die.

It's about trying to imagine how those seeking out euthanasia live's can be improved

Dead people's lives don't improve.

 

[joeylittle]

I thought this story would be relevant to the thread (and possibly get it a little more back to topic of PTSD)

Noa Pothoven - falsely reported to have been euthanized for PTSD/Depression/Anorexia

About 20 hours ago, the news was on many major media outlets that 16-year-old Noa Pothoven had been granted euthanasia by the end-of-life clinic in the Netherlands.

But as it turns out, her petitions were always denied. She did die this past weekend, at home, after refusing all food or liquids. It seems that her parents were supportive of her actions. There's a lot that people still don't know about what's factually occurred.

I was surprised at my own reaction to the (false) news, yesterday. Reading that a medical body - one that is very polarized, takes its job seriously, is very careful - had approved an assisted suicide for a 16 year old girl. That they believed her mental anguish and physical suffering were both unendurable and permanent.

I had a mixture of reactions - but the biggies were these thoughts:
I've been right all along. I've been telling my doctors that the diagnoses I am living with might just be permanent, and I've gotten close to trying all available options with still nothing helping. I've been trying to tell myself that they are right - that whether or not it's permanent is unknown, but there's enough evidence supporting the potential for recovery that it's worth continuing to try. I work hard at repeating that message to myself. And yet - here were honest to goodness doctors saying "we can grant the right to die because of these things"...

Validation. And fear - like the floor dropping out from under me, fear. I've been lying to myself. Telling myself that depression is clouding my judgement - that's been a lie.

And unexpected grief for someone I don't even know. I connect with part of her story, just because of how old she was when her rape trauma occurred. She was 14. She had experience sexual abuse before that, on 2 separate occasions, once when 11 and another a year later.

From all available info - she's a really extraordinary young woman who tried to fight her illnesses. She wrote a book. A book. About surviving, about suffering, the mental health system she had been thrown into...A book. And still - she couldn't find a way to survive.

Knowing that her euthanasia request was denied has given me a little bit of relief...but not a lot. I want to better understand what did occur, and how it came to be that her parents allowed her to successfully suicide at home.

The piece she was dealing with that can't be left off the narrative is, the anorexia. From all reports, hers was an extremely severe case.

Anyway - I'm curious how other people respond to all this...

 

[Tinyflame]

I think your questions are from the heart @joeylittle , and brutally honest.

It is heartbreaking, isn't it, when we can see the value or potential in and for her, that she couldn't see for herself.

I've been telling my doctors that the diagnoses I am living with might just be permanent, and I've gotten close to trying all available options with still nothing helping. I've been trying to tell myself that they are right - that whether or not it's permanent is unknown, but there's enough evidence supporting the potential for recovery that it's worth continuing to try. I work hard at repeating that message to myself. And yet - here were honest to goodness doctors saying "we can grant the right to die because of these things"... honest to goodness doctors saying "we can grant the right to die because of these things"... Validation. And fear - like the floor dropping out from under me, fear. I've been lying to myself. Telling myself that depression is clouding my judgement - that's been a lie.

I think, out here where I live, there is tremendous support for assisted death under many circumstances, whether it be for physical or psychological issues. I have wondered, why not here, on the forum? I think one part is lack of ignorance/ no information/ less misinformation, and one part is the support found here. And validating one another, and one another's worth, and showing ways to try to cope and manage and improve. It is not comprised of people saying "I agree it is hopeless", or 'stop talking'.

Something very disturbing here, is that this has not been the norm I've come across in dozens of situations:

Edited to add: & asking doctors, of all the people, to carry that murder out is just insulting.
Going against everything they trained years for, that they practice, that they oathed, that they live by.

You would think so ^^, but with rarest exception most doctors I have dealt with will advocate for as early a death as can be 'arranged', which they have justified on the basis (their words), of severity of illness, (or) age, (or) "they've had a hard life' (that was the last one), or because of the person's mental issues. And most people seem to agree: one person said to me as per their parent, that 'the doctor was a friend, and they wondered if the prescription the dr sent over would kill them?' (And gave it). Even end of life hospital (not hospice) care here, they withhold fluids; if you question it, they have always said (in my experiences), 'No, it will only prolong the process and make it worse (for your loved one)'. You might (sometimes) get more leeway if you're seen as having 'potential' or power or worth- young or wealthy. But mostly, no it's really quite gross to end up in the system.

I wonder if this poor girl's experiences post the rape and SA's convinced her there was no hope, because they were empowered to help and she felt further demoralized. Not cared for. Criminalized, no less, in her words. :(

 

[Ronin]

You would think so ^^, but with rarest exception most doctors I have dealt with will advocate for as early a death as can be 'arranged'

Yeah but keep in mind us as people with medical trauma here are not the representative of the work as is. Just from the fact we are trauma/abuse survivors, the settings in which that went on is also not representative of the usual norms. So extrapolating from that, alone, let alone crossing to (intended) policy making is gonna be coming from a distorted mental place.

Re. that girl: I wonder how much her anorexia played in, honestly. Both to the depression & ptsd, & to the decision to die / unable to see anything else. Because yeah, starvation messes perspective rather hard & rather fast.

 

[scout86]

Validation. And fear - like the floor dropping out from under me, fear.

That, right there, exactly. If I lose that hope, what have I got? And, how could I lose hope for someone else without losing hope for myself? And then what? Well, then I've got to die, obviously.

That was a good article, I read it earlier this afternoon. It also mentions that there weren't really resources available to treat teenagers with serious psychological problems. That surprised me and maybe it was a factor.

If I remember right, that's a link there to another article in the Guardian about how homelessness is handled in Finland. Also an interesting article. (Spoiler alert, they give people homes. What a novel concept.)

 

[Tinyflame]

Yes @Ronin I'm not advocating for it. But I am saying anyone (with or without trauma) who's spent any time with others in the hospital knows it's been going on routinely, and has witnesses. I've often thought, how common the agreement must be, to take the risk of (boldly) coming right out with suggesting it when it wasn't even legal. Most people who have brought it up with me have prefaced with, "You won't believe what happened, ..", about their spouse, son or dtr, parents. Most people not for it start with thinking it's a particular hospital.

In terms of ptsd- or anything else- seems to me the most sensible (and humane) solution is one that ends or reduces pain, not life. Like @scout86 's reference. Most shame comes in relation to what is perceived in relation to others' views, or society's standards. And it's hard for anyone, especially anyone struggling, to feel valued, respected or cherished when their experiences say otherwise or the opposite.

Here those that are requesting it are distributed across financial brackets, and other factors. But most people don't realize the highest rate of suicide proper is seniors. And they, along with many with ptsd, have a higher rate of chronic pain and illnesses, isolation, loss of family and friends, loss of roles and purpose, and often reduced financial abilities and mobility.

In terms of depression, as well as substance abuse, there is apparently a new school of thought, that it is influenced in some cases by neurological differences in the reward centre of the brain, not only biochemistry and/ or thought processes, as once thought.

 

[whiteraven]

Anyway - I'm curious how other people respond to all this...

This story is exactly why I signed on here tonight. I figured someone would be talking about it.

I was...intrigued when I read it. I have come to believe that there are some people who will just *not* get better. I think its unfortunate that this girl was so very young; the brain is not fully developed and there are so many things yet to learn.

If I didn't have people and animals I was responsible to and for, I might opt to take that out, if it were available to me. The pain I experience - and have experienced for 50+ years - only gets worse. And now, with unrelenting physical pain as well, there IS no hope of getting better. Only of having a day here and there that is less painful than the rest.

I really struggle with the idea that so many people have, that being alive under any circumstance is preferable to death. That suffering is preferable to dying. Some people don't get better. They just don't. And why do we (well, some) think it's ok for them to go through every day wishing they could be free of the suffering instead of providing them the means to alleviate it?

 

[shimmerz]

seems to me the most sensible (and humane) solution is one that ends or reduces pain, not life.

That's all I am trying to say.

And it's hard for anyone, especially anyone struggling, to feel valued, respected or cherished

Or heard in any significant way.

that there weren't really resources available to treat teenagers with serious psychological problems

I think this is more prevalent than any of us would normally think. We have been taught to believe that there are caring and compassionate supports surrounding each of us when in fact, here in Canada anyway, they are limited in their effectiveness.

I've been telling my doctors that the diagnoses I am living with might just be permanent, and I've gotten close to trying all available options with still nothing helping. I

Hmm, yes, I can see how this can be a very slippery slope, if I am picking up from it what you intended to say. I can see there would be a ripple effect of others learning to believe that PTSD is hopeless as they see others give up the fight (very publicly) by being approved for euthanasia. The anti-thesis of wellness speak which would have a large impact on others attitudes towards their own situation. Thanks for this.

Dead people's lives don't improve.

Nor do the lives of people who are continually, chronically, and severely traumatized minute by minute in just attempting to survive when the cards are stacked so high against them.

If we all are so brainwashed, why waste taxpayer money for a problem that will sort itself out by attrition sooner or later?

It's true. It is a jagged pill to swallow. These are all valid questions and I have asked myself. The response is too long and complex for this forum. So you get to believe what you want and I get to believe what I do. See how that works? Let's just agree to disagree and if you don't want to see it then don't.

And you are probably right, the homeless aren't caught in a continual cycle of severe trauma. They are hanging out in parks improving their chess playing skills and chatting about the new governments latest small business incentives. Listen, if that is the story you want to tell yourself then good on you. You do that.

The long and the short of it is that people who are asking for euthanasia are in so much f*cking pain that they can't escape from. I have a great idea. How 'bout we listen to and acknowledge that pain and see if we can advocate for a more compassionate society and make the people who handle our tax dollars accountable that those dollars are actually helping the people they are meant to be helping in a meaningful way?

Spoiler alert, they give people homes.

OMG who would have thought that giving homeless people homes would solve anything? GENIUS!

 

[shimmerz]

Edited to add: & asking doctors, of all the people, to carry that murder out is just insulting.

I have a friend whose mother is being denied food and drink right now. She looks like a skeleton and can barely move she is so weak. She has lasted longer than anyone thought and her family is freaking out it is so horrible to watch.be a part of. If you think this isn't happening already, then you are sadly mistaken.

if talking of a murder of a class of people

Euthanasia isn't murder.

If I didn't know any better Ronin, I would be thinking that you are arguing with me just for the sake of it. But of course, I know you wouldn't do that.

 

[shimmerz]

Where's the line where it's "terminal" and who should be allowed to judge that when the patients view may be altered by mental illness.

It's a good question. And not an easy one.

 

[somerandomguy]

At the end of the day, dying on purpose is a choice everyone has. The only thing that medical professionals, or the state for that matter, can do is to help facilitate it humanely. But even in the absence of facilitation, as that girl from the Netherlands proves, whether we are able to go on or not is ultimately our own decision.

However, there was one good reason to stay alive she completely missed - her brain hadn't finished growing yet. No one seems to have told her about the greater neuroplasticity of children & teenagers, or maybe in her pain she just didn't want to hear about it. It was her decision, but certainly we can all agree it was a huge waste of a life.

I tend to think that suicide, in pretty much every case, is a huge waste. Perhaps the benefit of the cessation of pain is worth it to the person who chooses to end their life. But I think it's a net loss to society as a whole.

 

[shimmerz]

It would be interesting to know what supports could have been put into place for her - what she felt she was missing - in order to help her change her mind. Perhaps other lives could be saved with that information.