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Echo
I have had 'friends' in my life who were happy to swap stories of struggle and failure and haven't liked it when I have then been successful at something or got a new boyfriend, or become pregnant or whatever. I have also had 'friends' who evidently feel a need to be 'friends' with someone who is suffering, struggling or whatever, in order to feel better about themselves. I seem to have been some kind of insurance policy for them. i.e. if it happens to me, then it doesn't have to happen to them. They can tell themselves that they wouldn't put themselves in that position or handle it that way or whatever, so they are safe. It is a rather patronising position to take, I feel, though I don't think they (or I) have necessarily been aware of the dynamics as it was happening. People are so complex.
I don't personally really get envy. When I miscarried or a boyfriend walked away from me, I didn't ever want anyone else's children, boyfriend or life. I don't find it difficult to be delighted for someone else when they land a fantastic new job, get pregnant, nor if they start finding a path to health. I think for some people, for some reason, they filter everything through how it affects them, and this can cause envy if you achieve something they want but haven't yet got. On the other hand, I gave up telling certain people about my miscarriages because their reaction was about their fear of it happening to them, not about offering me any support. I was spending all my time wiping their tears.
I wonder, @Solara whether this friend of yours somehow defines himself in relation to you and your suffering, but fears what it might mean for you to have been strong enough to rise above some part of your difficulties. Maybe he needs to feel better, superior or more in control, and it may not be very conscious in him. It is so hard not to take such behaviour personally. Sometimes we just have to go on regardless and act as role models, if you like. Maybe it is about attracting people who are more positive into our lives.
When I got CFS some years ago, I refused to be ill for any longer than necessary - and I was really wiped out by it. I fought to health within 3 years by a variety of means, all hard work and soul-searching. The symptoms I had then have not returned, despite the horrors of CPTSD, and despite the obvious massive stress levels of now. I was surrounded then by people who had the same diagnosis of CFS. Many of them refused to believe it was possible to get well. They had been told by their doctors that it was not possible. There was almost a sense that they hunkered down to become professional sufferers. Now, everyone's pathway is different and I cannot judge how it was for them. All I know is I faced a barrage of people telling me that I was not going to get better, that it was not possible, and then when I did kick it into touch, many people told me, well, I could not have had it in the first place. I realised my recovery threatened them in some way.
Sometimes it is worth asking what we represent in a particular friend's mindset. I also think it is worth finding people, if at all possible, who encourage us, celebrate our victories with us, and maybe have overcome great challenges. They are the ones who understand what it takes. And they are the ones who are generally happy and positive and won't criticise you when you are struggling.
I don't personally really get envy. When I miscarried or a boyfriend walked away from me, I didn't ever want anyone else's children, boyfriend or life. I don't find it difficult to be delighted for someone else when they land a fantastic new job, get pregnant, nor if they start finding a path to health. I think for some people, for some reason, they filter everything through how it affects them, and this can cause envy if you achieve something they want but haven't yet got. On the other hand, I gave up telling certain people about my miscarriages because their reaction was about their fear of it happening to them, not about offering me any support. I was spending all my time wiping their tears.
I wonder, @Solara whether this friend of yours somehow defines himself in relation to you and your suffering, but fears what it might mean for you to have been strong enough to rise above some part of your difficulties. Maybe he needs to feel better, superior or more in control, and it may not be very conscious in him. It is so hard not to take such behaviour personally. Sometimes we just have to go on regardless and act as role models, if you like. Maybe it is about attracting people who are more positive into our lives.
When I got CFS some years ago, I refused to be ill for any longer than necessary - and I was really wiped out by it. I fought to health within 3 years by a variety of means, all hard work and soul-searching. The symptoms I had then have not returned, despite the horrors of CPTSD, and despite the obvious massive stress levels of now. I was surrounded then by people who had the same diagnosis of CFS. Many of them refused to believe it was possible to get well. They had been told by their doctors that it was not possible. There was almost a sense that they hunkered down to become professional sufferers. Now, everyone's pathway is different and I cannot judge how it was for them. All I know is I faced a barrage of people telling me that I was not going to get better, that it was not possible, and then when I did kick it into touch, many people told me, well, I could not have had it in the first place. I realised my recovery threatened them in some way.
Sometimes it is worth asking what we represent in a particular friend's mindset. I also think it is worth finding people, if at all possible, who encourage us, celebrate our victories with us, and maybe have overcome great challenges. They are the ones who understand what it takes. And they are the ones who are generally happy and positive and won't criticise you when you are struggling.
Wow, that brings up a lot of strong feelings for me. I cut most of ties to my past over a two year period. It felt profoundly liberating and I don't regret it. But I will admit that the feeling of alienation that followed after the excitement died down was profoundly painful.
It may have been right, but my god was I ever lonely. It's a tight rope balance between trying to genuinely extricate ourselves from others who are no longer supportive and being careful not to create a situation in which we are simply using our disengagement from them as a way to disown parts of ourselves we don't like. I think I got it right at least, say, 75% of the time. But it was work.
My Therapist during the time I confronted my abuser was very helpful in reminding me that I had spent years running away and was now running *to* myself. I think finding a little metaphor like that, that feels emotionally right can be really helpful. Because we can sort of check back in with it and see if it continues to feel right. Good luck!
I think that part of the definition of "friend" is "someone who believes in you."
However, this is different than always being supportive of changes, because sometimes changes in our friends hit nerves in ourselves that we aren't ready to have hit, y'know? And... if we aren't ready to face that nerve head on, this can cause the friendship to weaken and/or end, no matter what we do. I also think that sometimes people are specifically brought into our lives in order to hit those nerves to force us to see what we don't want to.
On a good note, though, sometimes we react badly to changes our friends are making, see how it affects ourselves, and then change ourselves... strengthening the tie instead of weakening it.
However, this is different than always being supportive of changes, because sometimes changes in our friends hit nerves in ourselves that we aren't ready to have hit, y'know? And... if we aren't ready to face that nerve head on, this can cause the friendship to weaken and/or end, no matter what we do. I also think that sometimes people are specifically brought into our lives in order to hit those nerves to force us to see what we don't want to.
On a good note, though, sometimes we react badly to changes our friends are making, see how it affects ourselves, and then change ourselves... strengthening the tie instead of weakening it.
I was thinking more about this after I posted earlier. Mostly just about how, in the culture I live in in the urban US, I hear alot of platitudes about friends "standing by you" or loyalty, etc. And yet I feel very strongly that good relationships with others are almost like living organisms themselves in which both sides are in constant flux, hopefully finding a bit of grace too.
We can't possibly expect anyone or anything in relation to us to stay basically stable or the same as we change. Because we all reflect one another so much. Part of me thinks that, to some degree, when we really change, it is a good sign for there to also be corollary change and movement reflected in our friends. Whether or not they will stay our friends is more about our respective capacities to negotiate the change *together.*
We can't possibly expect anyone or anything in relation to us to stay basically stable or the same as we change. Because we all reflect one another so much. Part of me thinks that, to some degree, when we really change, it is a good sign for there to also be corollary change and movement reflected in our friends. Whether or not they will stay our friends is more about our respective capacities to negotiate the change *together.*
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scout86
VIP Member
I can imagine at least one reason (to directly answer your question). For some people, there's something to be gained from keeping people in their lives that they can feel "better than". Obviously, these people aren't exactly what you'd normally call "friends". I don't know that that's what's going on with your "friend".
My T keeps suggesting that there are usually WAY more options than I see, unless I work at it, so....... I suppose someone might keep a person they had little faith in in their life because they feel sorry for them too. There must be more possibilities.......
I would guess none of the possibilities go with a healthy, balanced relationship.
Have you considered asking him, straight up? Seems like a good question, to me.
My T keeps suggesting that there are usually WAY more options than I see, unless I work at it, so....... I suppose someone might keep a person they had little faith in in their life because they feel sorry for them too. There must be more possibilities.......
I would guess none of the possibilities go with a healthy, balanced relationship.
Have you considered asking him, straight up? Seems like a good question, to me.
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- #19
D
Deleted member 1860
Ok so I left out the parts about how it's not just people doubting I can change, but the slew of put downs that accompany it. If you listened to what he says about me, I am a miserable, negative person who actually enjoys being this way. Followed by "you're never going to change". Sorry for leaving this part out. It does put things more in perspective. Yeah, just a little bit.
We used to fight all the time. That was sort of the cycle of things. He just wanted me to stabilize. We haven't fought in awhile now. I gave him what he wanted (no fighting). He picks a fight with me last night. I literally have to point out to him that I wasn't fighting with him, not have I even attempted to fight with him for awhile now, and that in itself was a big change. I couldn't deal with him after that point so I told him that I didn't feel like talking anymore but he could call me in the future.
Yes, I know I am the identified patient, or effed up miserable crazy person. Without that dynamic, he is at a loss.
He has my number. If he wants to continue this friendship, he can call me.
We used to fight all the time. That was sort of the cycle of things. He just wanted me to stabilize. We haven't fought in awhile now. I gave him what he wanted (no fighting). He picks a fight with me last night. I literally have to point out to him that I wasn't fighting with him, not have I even attempted to fight with him for awhile now, and that in itself was a big change. I couldn't deal with him after that point so I told him that I didn't feel like talking anymore but he could call me in the future.
Yes, I know I am the identified patient, or effed up miserable crazy person. Without that dynamic, he is at a loss.
He has my number. If he wants to continue this friendship, he can call me.
Why would you want a friend like that? You need friends that push you to better yourself, not criticise and belittle you, @Solara Get rid of the shit! in your life and keep looking for the good!!! :)
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- #21
D
Deleted member 1860
I believe it's true? Well not anymore. I used to believe it was true. I won't get into the details, but it was partially an issue of reliving my trauma and trying to change the outcome. Well, that didn't work :(
@Solara, I'm sorry they are putting you down. That is definitely not friendship behavior! I think that sometimes people have a hard time when we change as it changes the dynamic. Not excusing the behavior in any sense, but I think that its through changes that we see what our friendships are really made of.
And, as @macca said, good on you for recognizing all of this, that's great!
And, as @macca said, good on you for recognizing all of this, that's great!
scout86
VIP Member
You know, I think this falls under the heading of "his problem". Too bad, because by not appreciating you for who you actually are, he's missing out on an intelligent, cool, and interesting person! His loss!!!
I'm not particularly good at the finer point of human interactions. His behavior makes no sense to me. I'm starting to realize that sometimes things don't make sense just because they don't. And, they don't have to either. If I chose to, I can set them aside and move on. Like you said, he has your number. Maybe he'll come around. But it seems like the problem is with him, not you.
I'm not particularly good at the finer point of human interactions. His behavior makes no sense to me. I'm starting to realize that sometimes things don't make sense just because they don't. And, they don't have to either. If I chose to, I can set them aside and move on. Like you said, he has your number. Maybe he'll come around. But it seems like the problem is with him, not you.
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