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Experiences With Sociopaths

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All of you saying just walk away - of course that's the ideal option.
But sometimes, for one reason or another, you can't sever ALL contact. Or if you can, it creates lots of complications and you might not have the emotional/mental resources to deal with the complication at the time.

In such a situation, knowing how to play along with a narcissist could be handy. I don't recommend trying to play with a psychopath or sociopath because ... I don't know how you would go about doing that. But I know what usually works with narcissists. And if you can't just walk away from a narcissist, then I stand by my original comments about appealing to their image and saying they are right about a lot of things. It soothes them. And then you go back and do whatever you want to do.
 
Prevention is ideal. Of course, too late for that for many of us.

Detection is a skill....and the best detector we can make is a combination of internal contact with our feelings, trust in ourselves, and contact with safe third parties who can help us stay strong and keep defending our boundaries so the abusers move on....hopefully.

Harm-reduction is an approach we need to use if we *have* to have these people in our lives, such as ex-husbands, parents of our children who still have custody rights, co-workers, bosses...there are some we just can't get fully away from.

We can give them minimal responses to have less ammunition to use against us. We can follow up everything with written documentation...even if only an email that we send to ourselves off-site. We can steer our interactions to being only in public or in front of witnesses. Go late, leave early to gatherings where this person is likely to interact with us. We can give ourselves permission to put on a cool, non- 'nice' exterior that lets them know we're not biting on any bait they dangle in front of us. Starving them of all optional, non-required attention is the best response to people who get off on creating chaos.

When prevention has failed, and detection has occurred, Escape is the best option...When possible. Removing them completely from our lives is sometimes the only possible strategy that preserves our emotional health. This is where so many fall victim to cultural messages which benefit only these abusers, and NOT the victims. Some examples of culturally invalidating/abuse prolonging/promoting messages are...

...'be nice'

...'forgive and forget'

...but s/he MEANT to [insert random BS intention here that is oppositional to actual behavior]

...s/he didn't MEAN to [insert fact of negative behavioral consequences, even if 'just' to our feelings] (*NOTE: When delivered by a third party, this is evidence of the messenger ALSO invalidating us...and though they may see themselves in the role of peacekeeper, best to discount all further input on the abuser as biased FOR the abuser)

...you 'SHOULD' messages....give another chance, minimize, be silent...any invalidation.

We also need safe people in our lives to talk to, to help provide gentle course corrections to our 'compass' to navigate these destructive, stormy relationships.

Easy test: If we feel bad around someone, they aren't healthy for us.

We have NO obligations to abusive people other than self-protection.
 
This discussion is turning out to be so full of useful advice.

I'm not in a position to walk away from H. He is the father of my children. And I have no evidence of anything.

We are separating, but he is staying close and his idea of separation is warped. He, I'm sure now, is waiting for me to fall on my face and he will be around to pick up the pieces, but he will be trying to control me and pull me down all the way. (And I still am hoping that I am wrong and can't believe I am thinking that)

I am writing everything down, sometimes very hard to recognise how he is gaslighting until I go over it and even write it down. I am not good at this. I do not think on my feet easily and I definitely need 3rd party help to guide me in the right direction.

I do feel a lot easier without him round now. My gut instinct tells me I am not safe with him.

I am not sure I will be able to massage his ego. I am just too reactive and triggered by him. I want to avoid interacting with him as much as possible, that is what I have been trying, but he is trying to engage with me and because I have to talk about the kids and how the separation will work, then he reels me in.

Definitely think he is a narcissist.

I now know also his history as a child and that was him being violent and abusive and to his sisters. (Found out the real truth, a few weeks ago) He has no true guilt for that either and is underplaying what he did, denying his sister's version. Making himself look the victim. So good at lying his whole family believed him.

Because of this I do think he is a sociopath too. Violent at times, not all the time, only to close family. Not to his kids. I hope it never comes to that, cause then I am running with them. No guilt, tries to blame me for what he did I provoked him and underplays it and just says he is bothered that he did these things. "These things happen"

He is very charming but mostly with women, they fall for it. He is mostly friendly with women rather than men. I have known some women he has worked with who he only casually know, divulge stuff to him, that I am amazed anyone would do that.

The marriage counsellor is a woman as was the previous one, and his previous psychologist. And I think they fall for his little boy charms all the way. When we went to see the last marriage counsellor together and I caught, out of the corner of my eye, her moving forward and touching his tie and complimenting his choice of matching clothes. Well that just I could not even believe what I was seeing. Not appropriate, to me, not appropriate. Maybe I am wrong, but I just can't believe it. But that is what happens, they fall for his little boy charms and I am the unsociable wife being mean to her husband.

What kills me is this time I told the marriage counsellor about his abuse and she still wanted me to be nice to him because he was claiming that I had been being mean to him after the last sadistic outburst of verbal abuse he launched on me, when I was at my most down (and he knew it) Ughhh, too hard to go into. She put me back made me have lots of doubts. Thank God I was seeing my own psychologist and he is of the same opinion, narcissitic sociopath.

The charming image, where he is looking after his family and now he is going through hardship and having to stay in a studio flat because I have kicked him out. But he is doing all the right things. Make people feel sorry for him. But show he is such a nice chap. That is what he is aiming to do at the moment.

And, if I am not careful, I know I have written all of this and I do believe it now, but I doubt myself so much and I fall for his niceness over and over that I could be dragged back in. BUT NO not this time. I WILL NOT

Just know it is not over when he moves out. Which is so terrifying.

Sorry turned out to be a rant. And yes, the label does not really matter. Whatever he has been abusive and he is out.
 
That 'marriage counselor' should have her license revoked. Unethical and harmful....beyond sickening. I'm SO sorry you had that happen to you!

Your feelings ARE correct.

Perhaps you can think of the time between now and when he moves out as 'evidence collecting' and 'assertiveness practice.'

I would highly suggest he be told 'You're not to sleep in my bedroom anymore. It's a mixed message'...and let it be his problem to work out. If you're safe doing that. If you're not...you could pack him a bag, make a non-refundable reservation at a hotel for him, and tell him in the afternoon when the kids aren't there. ...and keep repeating 'It's time for you to leave, now.'

If he escalates, 'Either leave, or I'll call the police and they can help you.'

I would urge you to not wait another night...it keeps giving him energy and time to use against you.

I didn't go through this with my own kids, but I did go through it with a documented dangerous sociopath ex-cop.

Assume the worst, and prepare accordingly. Contact your local domestic violence shelter, and seek their counsel. They help women escape all the time. They have names and numbers to help you. You qualify for their help, even if you choose not to use it...it is still good info to have on hand.

...and a quick list, once he's gone...that I did, or have helped women to do.

...change your passwords on your accounts, your email, your phone.

...have all insurance sent to you....and ask them not to change it unless they tell you.

...Open up your own account, and transfer money into it.

...keep all phone messages, emails, and texts for evidence. If he sends anything threatening or hostile, call the police the first time. Do not respond to his gaslighting or threats.

...ask police for increased patrols on your home...they will, and it'll send a strong message to him.

...change the locks, first thing when he's gone. Pay to have a professional do it.

...ask a trusted neighbor to call the police if she sees his car there when you're not there, or if she hears anything.

...ask your church to put you and the kids on the prayer list for your safety and healing. Your real friends will step forward, the posers will step back (saving you wasted energy on them)...and someone will blab it around, thereby exposing him and getting the pain of the 'reveal' over with quick. :)

You might invite a friend over each evening for the first two weeks to gain needed support, witness....and so the kids' emotional needs can be attended to as well through distraction via board games, movies....whatever works.

Allow him to carry the shame of a marriage that he failed to be a partner in. The shame he tries to put on you creates more isolation and risk to you. Once you move beyond that...he loses that manipulation.

Try to hold your head up and tell everyone you trust, and the kids' teachers that you made him move out, and the school is to let you know if he comes to pick them up. Inform all potential allies right away.

There's a real risk here...I know you don't need me to tell you that. Allow yourself to be ok spending any amount of money and public attention you need to feel & be safe.

I helped the ex-wife of a local cop escape him, even when his department and some of his buddies in two others were using their authority, cars, dog to bully her. Some friends and I got evidence and threatened to go public with it...and I did make public the bullying thanks to facebook...and got the Mayor's office and aldermen involved. That got all three departments (including the chief and sheriff) to back the F' off. Nothing like facts backed up with photo, video, screenshot evidence to put @$$hole on the defensive.

UGH. Just having FB's here....sorry, don't mind me going out of my head. Got too many of these in my background...

You can do this. You are doing it. You owe him nothing.

Ignore anything I've said that doesn't apply or feel safe.
 
Hello Lizio and everyone else as well,

I spoke to my psychriatrist at length about how hard it is to pick psychopaths and sociopaths today in my sesssion.

These are clever and tricky people who fool many people - at least we have some idea that they exist - people who haven't done the type of work we have done have no idea at all.

Poor them.

ms spock
 
Ptsd Sufferer. Sorry you have been through so much. But your experiences and mine are very different. The psychopath I know, would never admit anything. Thats part of the game. Play cute and harmless, but as you said, be the puppet master. It always comes at you from somewhere you werent expecting. The only thing you get is ....surprised. And its set up in such a way that if you open your mouth at all, they are the 'victim'. Its beyond me how she thinks of what she does and how cleverly its done, but she's already got her bases covered before it bites you. Cat and a ball of string.

I would be the last one to deny the actual 'cleverness' of these individuals. But this one never confronts over her cleverness. You just see that vague smirk in the eyes as they congratulate themselves. And the target is normally someone or something you love, or someone or something that loves/like you.

The aim is to destroy. Pure sadistic, cold blooded, calculated methodology. What they get out of it is enjoying seeing the pain, the distress, the anguish. They study the victim, know where and how to hurt them most. And smile while doing it. Quite calm and unruffled. Its a game. Its a dangerous game. But to them its a game. The game supports their delusions. The game makes their delusions seem real to others.

F**k, shuddering again.

Sociopaths and pychopaths are a very very different species. One is self focussed and lacking empathy (ruthless) and the other seems to be focussed on their particular victim. The NEED to have a VICTIM. A specific one on one victim. And if that victim is no longer available....they simply look for another one. They seem to NEED to prove their cleverness by destroying a victim. And god help anyone who tries to expose them. You see they would love that game even more. They are so clever you see. F**K this has me shaking like a damn leaf.

I'm off for a walk. Change channels and get my legs back.
 
Hi Lizio

Omg well done you! Thats so fantastic to have made these moves to seperate things out for yourself and look after yourself.

I left my partner who was a sociopath last year. I could not have done it without alot of support and planning with my T. We role played what to do when he tested me/tried to get a rise out of me and what to do if he threatened me. It really helped. We also made a plan for how to seperate things out. My ex thought he was god's gift to the universe and that the world owed him/had done him wrong. his main defence was to threaten suicide. He'd write a suicide note because of something I did or didnt do and then leave it for me to find. It would mess me up for ages. Then I eventually found out he was usually off having sex with other people when he left the notes while I was racing around having a nervous breakdown and calling the police etc. Our main approach (me and my T) was to placate him and buy into his grandiosity.
I said that I'd thought long and hard about our relationship and I decided that I had to not be selfish and that true love was to let him go (ofcourse I didnt love him, I was terrified of him). I said that I felt he deserved better than me, someone who could do x, w, z etc. I said that I also felt he was undervalued in his job (He was working for my sister) and that there were no jobs in the state that really equalled his skill level. Then I said that I needed him to understand that it was incredably hard for me to not be with him (not, get out of my life you total psycho) but I had to think of whats best for him and not be selfish by keeping him/holding him back with me (I felt the opposite).
I have to say, this outright lying over a period of time was really bad for me and messed me up a fair bit, just made me feel sick and the opposite of myself BUT it worked.
He moved out and then moved interstate. When he tried to contact me after that I just said, "Im so sorry its just too hard to hear your voice because it hurts so much, I miss you but I just cant talk to you anymore because your so significant to me and I cant hold you back any longer.

He stopped trying to contact me after that. He tried once this year but I just acted really normal and glib but kind of flat. Because sociopaths and psychopaths dont have a sense of conscience they cant get their sense of feeling good from morals like most people so they get it from adrenaline instead: feeling powerful, getting a rise, scattering people like chickens. So if you dont give them any adrenaline, they get bored. So I just acted really boring, didnt give him a rise. The point to remember there is they get a rise if you get upset or seem unnerved by them so my trick was to shift my terrified ptsd energy into saying the "No, I cant talk to you, Im doing the right thing in not holding you back any longer, thanks for the call, Im sorry to have to cut you off but its the only way I can cope being without you" line.

I think your amazing. I hope some of this helps. Take care of you. Also, if you are afraid of him could you let someone know your suspicions so that if something does happen someone else knows?
 
Ptsd Sufferer. Sorry you have been through so much. But your experiences and mine are very different. The psychopath I know, would never admit anything. Thats part of the game. Play cute and harmless, but as you said, be the puppet master. It always comes at you from somewhere you werent expecting. The only thing you get is ....surprised. And its set up in such a way that if you open your mouth at all, they are the 'victim'. Its beyond me how she thinks of what she does and how cleverly its done, but she's already got her bases covered before it bites you. Cat and a ball of string.

I would be the last one to deny the actual 'cleverness' of these individuals. But this one never confronts over her cleverness. You just see that vague smirk in the eyes as they congratulate themselves. And the target is normally someone or something you love, or someone or something that loves/like you.

The aim is to destroy. Pure sadistic, cold blooded, calculated methodology. What they get out of it is enjoying seeing the pain, the distress, the anguish. They study the victim, know where and how to hurt them most. And smile while doing it. Quite calm and unruffled. Its a game. Its a dangerous game. But to them its a game. The game supports their delusions. The game makes their delusions seem real to others.

F**k, shuddering again.

Sociopaths and pychopaths are a very very different species. One is self focussed and lacking empathy (ruthless) and the other seems to be focussed on their particular victim. The NEED to have a VICTIM. A specific one on one victim. And if that victim is no longer available....they simply look for another one. They seem to NEED to prove their cleverness by destroying a victim. And god help anyone who tries to expose them. You see they would love that game even more. They are so clever you see. F**K this has me shaking like a damn leaf.

I'm off for a walk. Change channels and get my legs back.

Hi Jacquie,

I am sorry this has caused so much distress. Our experience is more similar than you probably think. The plan maybe different, the 'players' may be different, but in essence, we can describe the same 'condition'. We do look at it from a different perspective though.

You are right. They always have to have targets. Sometimes more than one at the same time. There have been targets before me, targets along side of me and will be targets in the future. It depends on what sick desire they need to satisfy.

The psychopaths I encountered had good cause to believe that they could expose themselves because of my reactions to trauma situations could be used to their advantage. They thought they had covered all people and bases in their plan, so that they could deceive. They also had so much faith in their ability to deceive and faith in the 'image' they created for themselves. They have by all accounts 'deceived' such a long time, and slipped through the cracks on many occasions. This builds up their sense of power and indestructibility.

They do, however, slip up occasionally. With such faith in their ego, they can make little mistakes. There can be a growing number of victims that discover each other. When their plan is derailed, they can be forced to act spontaneously (they have an inability to think things through, they can only think of their plan and the parameters of their plan). They can slip up is when they have not counted on the 'variables' of human emotion and behavior. People can change their course of action, walk away, or behave in a way that the psychopath cannot predict. Humans can do something differently to what we usually do, we can be 'unpredictable'.

They honestly believe that they know people better than those people know themselves. Yes they can read us, yes they can hone into our 'buttons', they can identify flaws to 'exploit', and they do. They also want you to believe that they can do this as it gives them more power. The more you destroy someone, the lower their confidence goes and the higher the ability to control. In reality, chaos theory rains, and factors can be changed. The problem is the consequences of being the one to derail their plan - what that means if you are the one to do that. In my case - I become a 'threat' and 'dispensable'.

They don't care about slipping up, because the 'grandious' part of them thinks that they are able to get out of anything, by being (as you say) 'clever' at deception. Your psychopath obviously slipped up enough to have a group of victims gathering together to form a case against him. The factor that stopped him being 'outed' was his ability to charm, and deceive, his way out of it with the T. That is the fault of the T, for not seeing through the 'smoke screen'. So, most of the time they succeed at deception even when they have been caught out. But when they do slip up, I pray that a psychopath's target has a tape recorder strapped to their leg to capture it all!

Also, I should note that we wouldn't have known what a psychopath was unless some slipped up and were jailed. This is where the study of psychopaths began, psychiatrists looking for common behaviors, brain patterns etc in convicted murders. Those that slipped up, gave us the classification of the conditions - sociopath, psychopath.
 
This discussion is turning out to be so full of useful advice.

He is very charming but mostly with women, they fall for it. He is mostly friendly with women rather than men. I have known some women he has worked with who he only casually know, divulge stuff to him, that I am amazed anyone would do that.

The marriage counsellor is a woman as was the previous one, and his previous psychologist. And I think they fall for his little boy charms all the way. When we went to see the last marriage counsellor together and I caught, out of the corner of my eye, her moving forward and touching his tie and complimenting his choice of matching clothes. Well that just I could not even believe what I was seeing. Not appropriate, to me, not appropriate. Maybe I am wrong, but I just can't believe it. But that is what happens, they fall for his little boy charms and I am the unsociable wife being mean to her husband.

Thank God I was seeing my own psychologist and he is of the same opinion, narcissistic sociopath.

.

You need to get another marriage counsellor, preferably a male, but they still might be sucked in. This is totally inappropriate.

You are learning very important skills. Learning how to identify sociopaths and psychopaths are hard to detect in so many ways because of the charm, cleverness and manipulation. It is so hard.

I am glad you have a psychologist that is steady and true and with the program.

I feel concern for you,
ms spock
 
You might invite a friend over each evening for the first two weeks to gain needed support, witness.

Having a witness is really important.

Getting some security cameras installed would be a good idea.

Have as many witnesses as you can.

If your church will support you ask for them to draw up a roster of people to come over to support and be a witness for a couple of months.

BloominWinter is spot on - document, document, document.

Drop by the police station and make an appointment to see a DV officer or another officer and ask for their advice.
Take photos of you, him and the children so they can be passed around.

ms spock
 
If he escalates, 'Either leave, or I'll call the police and they can help you.'

Assume the worst, and prepare accordingly. Contact your local domestic violence shelter, and seek their counsel. They help women escape all the time. They have names and numbers to help you. You qualify for their help, even if you choose not to use it...it is still good info to have on hand.

There's a real risk here...I know you don't need me to tell you that. Allow yourself to be ok spending any amount of money and public attention you need to feel & be safe.

I would go and see the domestic violence shelter - that is a really good idea.

And if he is about to become physically violent ring the police without telling him and tell them you will leave the front door open. Go outside and wait for them.

ms spock
 
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