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Gaslighting vs transference vs over-reactivity vs ???

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Then I realized that there was a higher-order integrity I was going after...authenticity. My internal world felt chaotic yesterday.
It was good to be real with what you were actually thinking that lead to the questions you had.
It's similar to what NTs do with their emotions...allow their emotions to run amok, processing through that chaos, until they can settle into a healthier, more cohesive perspective on the problematic situation.
Actually, this isn’t quite what healthy NT (neurotypicals) do when they are handling things well. They don’t “let emotions run amuck.” Plus, emotions and thoughts are not unlinked. If emotions are running amuck for NTs, most of the time, thoughts are in the mix and running amuck too. And vice versa. (And I do realize some things will be somewhat different due to being on the spectrum.)

When I’m having a big reaction to something, including transference and/or feeling dismissed, my emotions and thoughts may both be off kilter- and the path to get back on track is to challenge them. Often, this is easier the sooner I do it, not after a time of letting myself be really dyrgeulated. That doesn’t mean the pain goes away. But it gets handled and processed differently from the get go. (Is this how it is all the time for me? No. I’m working on it. :))

That being said, it’s also really ok to ask your therapist for s little more space to share illogical thoughts. But if he left you there, that wouldn’t be helpful.

Let’s follow the model with crying. Therapists are to allow room for the crying and help us process it through. Give us the tools to manage it. They may also help us connect with the thoughts behind the tears.

For you, it may be a matter of connecting to the emotions behind the thoughts.

And if it helps at all, it’s not just people in the spectrum that struggle with a balance of thought and emotion. When I did a DBT group years ago, half the room identified that they used too much “emotion mind.” The other half of the room, the camp I was in, identified we used too much “reason mind.” I saw no purpose to paying attention to emotions or body states (which can be another clue to emotions.)

The goal: to use reason mind and emotion mind together to reach wise mind.

I personally spent a lot of time learning xyz thought might link to abc emotion.

This is to say that while some (or all) of your challenge may have more to do with aspergers than PTSD, it’s not undue to you to fall heavily into the logic only camp.
So then I wondered if that might explain why I felt so invalidated by my T's response yesterday in my session. If he's jumping to the disintegrity of my chaotic logic, it's similar in experience for me as when someone tells an NT "You shouldn't feel that way because it doesn't make sense."
This seems very possible. I can see how it would stir up feeling dismissed by your mother too.

Maybe what you both need is to use more language to address emotions. Not just logic? Maybe he could help coach you in identifying how each thought connects to an emotion. Logical or not.

And then give space for it to be expressed in the way that is most healthy for you to express it, in your style of expressing it, without it running amuck.

Make sense? I might be as clear as mud at the moment.

You are doing good work though to sort this through.
 
In a way, the more you can let go of trying to guess her intentions (all of us are terrible at mind reading) and the more you can focus on you, the better off you’ll be - and the more accurate.

Yes, this makes sense and I'm working on it. I think I'm really struggling to create emotional boundaries with her, where her position or needs or interpretations don't dictate my value. Cognitively I understand fully the need for and reasonableness of emotional boundaries, but in reality, I've not yet figured out how to pull it off. Her opinion of me floods my inner world and defines everything about me. It shouldn't, but it does.

Your mother isn’t going to always be logical or respond to logic, and that’s probably going to be frustrating as hell for a time until you can accept it or build up other tools.

My T pointed out that people aren't always logical, even healthy ones. I understand that, but I have no other tools for relating to people that don't rely on logic. That's why I can't stand "hanging out" or "chatting" and why I don't use language for "connection" because for me, it's only a pragmatic tool, not a social function. I've tried all my life to break out of that logic framework, and I can't. I can develop more complex logic that accounts for more variables, but it still relies on the basic framework of logic.

Try using the when you do xyz, I feel (or think) abc. In the future when you do xyz I am going to (the boundary you will hold). It is a way to set boundaries in a non confrontational but clear way.

I'm familiar with this algorithm, and we've used it a lot in family therapy in the past tense: "I felt abc when you did xyz." It helped some. But my family uses such a different relational paradigm than I do...for them, closeness and togetherness trump all other priorities, whereas for me, boundaries and freedom must exist before closeness is possible...that my feelings don't make sense to them and their feelings don't make sense to me...and add on top of that their propensity to focus on emotions and empathy at the expense of twisting the facts to suit their emotional stories, vs my need for accurate facts and rational logic without significant regard for shifty feelings and the warm fuzzies...and we end up in the same dead ends as where we started. The famT eventually gave up on the empathetic communication skills and is experimenting with a different approach.

You can set boundaries and ask for what you need.

I haven't yet been able to wrap my mind around the idea that I can set boundaries that I haven't adequately justified to my family. If I can't explain it in a way that makes sense to them, then it makes them angry and they feel rejected and therefore I'm wrong. I know that's not an accurate conclusion, but I've not been able to stop my mind from going there. It comes back to the lack of emotional boundaries. I know I should have emotional boundaries, but I don't know how. What's the how-to? ...the step-by-step? ...the inner changes required to effect that outer shift?

But you can still stick up for you even if she was being totally reasonable

This is a foreign concept to me, that I can have a boundary based solely on my own experience and not grounded in the ultimatums of right vs wrong. My personal preferences were never a priority, either for others or for myself. When they did ask what I wanted, I always logicked out the "best" option based on rules and priorities of rightness, efficiency, effectiveness, prudence, cost-benefit, and so on. But what do I want? I have absolutely no clue. Instead, I always tried to determine which option that logic dictated was best.

We all have our own road map of reality.

I can see where this makes sense. I'll try to remember it. It's difficult when there are objectively verifiable facts being altered or ignored in order to fit others' emotional stories. How do you hold people accountable to facts while acknowledging the variation and inherent subjectivity of perceptions of reality?

I've found that idea useful for a lot of reasons. To begin with, I was raised with kind of a frantic fear of being "wrong". And then the flip side of that, a kind of paralyzing need to "get things right". (Except that that was impossible.) ... A lot of people are under the impression that what they're talking about it actually "reality".

Yes and yes.

If my perception of her words is wrong, then how can I rely on my perception of her words in the future? Maybe that's all-or-nothing thinking again? This whole, partial-but-unpredictable accuracy thing creates the need for highly complex logic that I don't think I can muster in a live conversation. Maybe when I'm alone in a quiet place...but not during a stressful conversation with such high stakes.

Where your T is concerned? Everyone now and then, mine says something that makes me think, "Darn! I thought YOU were supposed to be "on my side" and now it sounds like you aren't! What am I supposed to do with THAT!!!" (And then I tend to start mentally yelling at myself for being generally stupid and "wrong". Which is me, not him, and I'm working on that.) He IS, in fact, on my side, but he still doesn't always say exactly what I'd like to hear.

I experience this more often than I'd like to admit. Eventually I get to a place of reminding myself I want to learn from everything he says, even when it hurts like hell. And it helps having his voice in my head when I'm dealing with my mom. But I wish there weren't so many sessions where I walk away feeling like a complete idiot and so overflowing with toxic shame that I imagine blowing my brains out in order to calm myself down.

What does the family T say about that?

I wrote about that whole process here in this thread. After sharing my dx, my sister said "This explains everything. It's like the legend on a map that makes everything else make sense." And the famT responded, "Do you see how that makes it seem like you think her aspergers is the only problem here?" My sister first seemed to acknowledge the issue, then worked her way back around to...my aspergers is really the issue. But we were nearly out of time, so no chance to really address it at that session. Then, due to travel schedules, our next session isn't until later this week.
 
I've tried all my life to break out of that logic framework, and I can't. I can develop more complex logic that accounts for more variables, but it still relies on the basic framework of logic.
Try looking at it another way.

Do you have the power to change others? Logic would indicate no.
Are all humans logical? Logic would indicate no.
Does imposing logic on illogical humans make them logical? Logic would again indicate no.

So I don’t think your resistance is all logic based. I’m also not stating your resistance is illogical but emotional. Your emotion mind and reason mind do both come through.

It’s hard to accept that family members can’t be what we want them to be.

When it comes down to it, you don’t need them to be logical to keep you safe. Does it help? Sure. But is it required? No.

Example: I used to volunteer with unpredictable wild mustangs. I could be safe because of the fences I put between me and the mustangs. I could be near them, as long as there was that fence. They could be as wild as they were, and I was safe.

For you, as you define your space and your boundaries between you and your family, it will be easier to be around them and not take it all in. You’ll have a fence between you and them.

Part of building that fence for me wasn’t to first tame the wild mustang. It was to accept that they are wild. So I need the fence.

The more you keep trying to change your family to be logical, the more you get pulled into enmeshment with them. Instead, you gotta accept they are what they are, and with fences, that allow you to be you and them to be around them in a safer way.

You are on the right path to work on internal boundaries and not taking on everything your mother says. I also think your family T is pretty darn good. Aspergers isn’t THE problem. It’s in the mix, but so are a lot of other issues.
 
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Let’s follow the model with crying. Therapists are to allow room for the crying and help us process it through. Give us the tools to manage it. They may also help us connect with the thoughts behind the tears.

For you, it may be a matter of connecting to the emotions behind the thoughts.

This is something to think about. But what follows...

Maybe he could help coach you in identifying how each thought connects to an emotion. Logical or not.

And then give space for it to be expressed in the way that is most healthy for you to express it, in your style of expressing it, without it running amuck.

...there just isn't a way to express my emotions directly. As far as authentic, external emotional expression goes for me...there are basically two settings: anxiety, or apathy...and sometimes anticipation, although that's more of a special form of anxiety, not purely an expression of its own. Anything other than that is faked to some degree or another. I have tons of other emotions inside, but they don't have direct access to the outside except in the form of anxiety or apathy. So whatever other emotion I'm experiencing has to be communicated in something other than an emotional expression.

That's where the chaotic logic comes in. My T keeps trying to shut that down, because that's what you do as a T...challenge distorted thinking. But maybe it would be possible to allow that distorted thinking to run its course in an effort to explore what I'm feeling and what I need?

Part of building that fence for me wasn’t to first game the wild mustang. It was to accept that they are wild. So I need the fence.

This makes sense. It's like the fable of the scorpion and the frog. I need to think on this a while...
 
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If I can't explain it in a way that makes sense to them, then it makes them angry and they feel rejected and therefore I'm wrong.
Be forewarned that I might be projecting my own family into your situation and it might not be accurate. (But I think it is.)

Something that makes this extra difficult is the possibility that your family isn't sincerely trying to work things out. There is a possibility that they are really only interested in accepting boundaries THEY like and approve of, whether those boundaries make sense or not. In fact, they may be spending 0 time trying to understand anything, other than how things affect them and their wishes and goals. It's entirely possible that they agreed to, or wanted, this family therapy hoping that the T will be able to negotiate you back into being the person they wanted you to be. That's not a happy thought, but I'm pretty sure it's why my ex agreed to couples therapy and it seems pretty consistent with the sort of person your mother appears to be.

IF that's what's going on, no amount of sincere effort on your part is going to bring about a reasonable outcome. For that matter, you can set any and all boundaries you want, that doesn't mean that anyone else is going to feel obligated to respect them. One half of the whole "boundary" think is the other person has to agree to respect boundaries and then follow through and actually do it.
If my perception of her words is wrong, then how can I rely on my perception of her words in the future?
This is a problem for me too. With my mother, it always seemed like one of "the rules of the game" was "Scout can't be right", even if it meant "moving the goal posts" as you said earlier. After I started therapy, and shared a few of her emails with my T, he agreed with me. From there on, he reminded me, in interacting with her, that there was no point in worrying about "getting it right" from her point of view, because that, by definition, wasn't an option. She wasn't actually interested in accurate information, she was interested in me being wrong. And, maybe it wasn't personal, maybe she was more interested in her being able to tell someone else they were wrong. I finally gave up trying to understand it, because it just wasn't rational enough TO figure it out. It was her version of reality and it was kind of bizarre. That's all it was. Dealing with her was a bit like visiting an alternative version of reality, with hard to comprehend rules. It wasn't ME who was wrong, it was the way her rules were structured that made it seem that way. Once I accepted that, it made it easier. (But I needed my T to say, "So what is it you that makes you think you can do 'the right thing' this time?"

I could be wrong here, I know I could, but I'd at least like to throw out the thought that you're trying REALLY hard to work on all of this, in a totally sincere and honest way, and your mother and sister may not be doing the same. One more thing. That "flipping" thing you mentioned with your mother? I've seen that too. Scares the heck out of me! Because, if a person can put up THAT good of a false front, how do you ever know who you're dealing with? (I asked my T. He says you don't and it's pretty hard to deal with them at all, beyond superficially.) Unfortunately, until someone's actually seen that happen, it's really hard to believe that it does or even that it can. So people tend to believe what I think of as "the false front". Because that's what they've seen. There's a real tendency for people who haven't seen it to believe that YOU are the crazy one, or the problem. (Most people really think my mother was a sweet little old lady. But there are some people who knew her at the nursing home who, eventually, got to see the other side of her.) Again, it's hard to deal with people like that in any kind of authentic way, because their version of authentic is pretty complicated.
That's where the chaotic logic comes in. My T keeps trying to shut that down, because that's what you do as a T...challenge distorted thinking. But maybe it would be possible to allow that distorted thinking to run its course in an effort to explore what I'm feeling and what I need?
There's a difference between pointing out distorted thinking and shutting it down, I think. My T usually "points it out" by asking me questions to work through the thought process, so I eventually see the distortion for myself. Sometimes that takes awhile. (Like he has to run through the same issue, different times, for different reasons, until a light finally comes on for me. Or, thinking some more, on my way home, it will suddenly dawn on me that he was trying to make a pretty valid point and I missed it at first.) But his technique is basically to set it up and let me find it for myself, most of the time.
 
Something that makes this extra difficult is the possibility that your family isn't sincerely trying to work things out. There is a possibility that they are really only interested in accepting boundaries THEY like and approve of, whether those boundaries make sense or not. In fact, they may be spending 0 time trying to understand anything, other than how things affect them and their wishes and goals. It's entirely possible that they agreed to, or wanted, this family therapy hoping that the T will be able to negotiate you back into being the person they wanted you to be.

I think this is definitely where they started, and basically said as much at the most recent session. They said they had been waiting for me to get back to being who I used to be, the "me" they all liked. The famT explained that was the unhealthy-me, and the way I am now is actually the healthy-me. I suspect they might be willing to make adjustments, so long as they can understand it in the sense of "blaming" it all on my aspergers and thinking of it as accommodations for my "handicaps." I'm hoping for something more...for improved health for the whole family system, or at least for a few, specific relationships within that system, instead of being labeled as the "cause" of all the problems. But you're right...that might not be possible.

From there on, he reminded me, in interacting with her, that there was no point in worrying about "getting it right" from her point of view, because that, by definition, wasn't an option. ... Dealing with her was a bit like visiting an alternative version of reality, with hard to comprehend rules. It wasn't ME who was wrong, it was the way her rules were structured that made it seem that way. Once I accepted that, it made it easier.

It does feel like I enter an alternate reality when dealing with them. I grew up in that reality, and adopted its rules in building my understanding of the world and my algorithms for how to interact with the world. When I realized those algorithms weren't working for me, I started looking for outside information and changing my internal structures for external communications (e.g., boundaries, diversity, freedom, authenticity). And that's when I started having so many problems with my family, and I couldn't understand why they weren't delighted with the healthier dynamics I was learning. Then I realized we were functioning from two different paradigms, and I started trying to identify the parameters of each in contrast to the other. Thing is, I've noticed that when I'm around them, I have a very difficult time holding onto my own paradigm and instead fall into the old patterns of their paradigm...my logic falls apart because I get stuck assuming their paradigm is what defines "right". I have to get away from them to reconnect with my newer paradigm and start to see the flaws in the logic while I was with them. That was another reason I had asked for more written communication and less face-to-face communication, so I could think things through more freely and more carefully, but that didn't work out very well because even though they agreed to it, they continued to resent it and resist it and blame me for problems that came of it.

Did you ever reach a point where you could be around your mom and not get sucked into her system of relationship?

Because, if a person can put up THAT good of a false front, how do you ever know who you're dealing with? (I asked my T. He says you don't and it's pretty hard to deal with them at all, beyond superficially.) Unfortunately, until someone's actually seen that happen, it's really hard to believe that it does or even that it can. So people tend to believe what I think of as "the false front".

How much of this is normal for all people, and how much of it is characteristic of my mom's mental issues? Doesn't everyone put up something of a false front with other people? Just scratch the surface of authenticity discussions, and you find everyone commiserating about how challenging it is to be your true self with other people, especially for introverts.

The recorded conversations my T has listened to...he's been pretty shocked at her switching within a single conversation. I struggled with that because it seems "normal" to me. I'm so used to her doing that, and I just track right along with her. Nothing said at any other time has any relevance in a logical back-and-forth with her...the only logic that is admissible at any given time is something she just said or something completely consistent with her current frame of reference at that moment. Even something said earlier in the conversation, if I reference it, can completely derail the conversation because she either claims to not remember that part of the conversation or she says she meant something other than what I heard her say (even if I quote her own words). So I realized that conversations with her have always been like that, and I just thought it was normal because I never had extended conversations about conflicts with anyone else (except my dad and step-dad, who were just as resistant to accountability).

But I've also experienced--from my perspective--a similar pattern in family therapy, where someone says one thing, but those words end up having a different meaning later in the conversation, even if I give a quote of what was actually said. But somehow I'm the one misinterpreting because "aspies tend to interpret things too literally" (that was the famT's explanation for the discrepancies in her understanding vs my understanding of something my mom had said). So am I consistently misinterpreting what people say? Or is my mom switching between logic-stances (i.e., positions on an issue) based on her emotions at any given moment?

There's a difference between pointing out distorted thinking and shutting it down, I think. My T usually "points it out" by asking me questions to work through the thought process, so I eventually see the distortion for myself.

Yes, this is true. I think I overstated in saying that my T "shuts it down"...he calls attention to it by asking questions that are supposed to help redirect my thinking--usually, I already know where the distortions are or at least suspect them, but I'm trying to express something in those statements and instead of hearing me, he's redirecting. It feels like he's shutting it down, because my tendency is to theoretically follow the logic to its natural conclusion before redirecting it, and then I have a sense of closure on it instead of it feeling unresolved. Maybe that's an aspie thing, where I can't leave a thought unthunk. Beyond that, there's also the need to allow chaotic logic in order to express the emotions underneath. The grief and hopelessness and loneliness and pain have no other outlet, no other connection with the outside world. Can my T "hold space" for the cognitive distortions for a bit, knowing that I know how to identify the logical discrepancies, and instead of addressing them, actually empathize with them like he would with an NT's intense emotions?

Like he has to run through the same issue, different times, for different reasons, until a light finally comes on for me. Or, thinking some more, on my way home, it will suddenly dawn on me that he was trying to make a pretty valid point and I missed it at first.

In addition to all I just said about chaotic logic, there's still an aspect of my sessions that looks like this, too...where there's a principle I'm missing, and he states it out loud, and it hits home, but then I forget over time or fail to apply it in a new situation, and he states it again later so that I can keep working on learning it. This is where the real value of my sessions has come from so far, and it's good stuff.

But I feel so emotionally disconnected and isolated, and I guess the chaotic logic thing, and holding space for that, is something that I'm hoping might fill in that gap? The loneliness and emotional distance are overshadowing everything else at this point with my T. It doesn't seem to matter how good his insights are if I feel completely alone and ashamed of who I am during and after those sessions. I need some kind of connection...something that helps me feel the acceptance and respect he says that he has for me. And in this discussion here is where I'm realizing how those cognitive distortions have actually been my effort at reaching out to him in a way that is genuine for me...my native language...where I'm putting my internal experience out there in the only way I know how, and his response (and people's here and IRL) is often instead to point out how distorted it is.

If a client is sitting in his office crying, would he point out that her emotions are distorted? Or would he basically say, "Your sadness really makes sense in the context of your experiences. That sadness (or anger or fear or whatever) has something important to contribute here. Let's listen to it and process that information together." Could the same thing happen for a cognitive distortion? "This line of thinking really makes sense in the context of your experiences. Internally for you, it fits, and it has integrity of its own, and it has something important to contribute to our understanding of you and what you need. Let's explore it together and see what comes up." Typing that, I feel like crying. That's an entirely different approach to chaotic logic that might actually make sense to me in the middle of a chaotic storm inside, that wouldn't feel distancing, that would feel like he's hearing me and validating my internal experience.

And done well, it wouldn't end with destructive conclusions. I'm not impulsive. I'm not usually trapped in such distorted logic running on intense emotions alone, that I can't at least identify the distortions. I'm highly, highly conscious of the consequences of my behavior, to the point of being told repeatedly how over-responsible I am. I've repeatedly surprised my Ts at my ability to tackle a very difficult and painful task or part of a process or conversation or whatever, simply because I determined that was the "right" course of action, regardless of how hard it would be. My morals and ethics and standards for myself are intensely high, almost to the point of being problematic. Could there be some space in there for allowing some cognitive distortions to sit in the conversation long enough to explore what's underneath them, instead of having to challenge them as soon as they surface, just like he would do for an NT's difficult or painful emotions?
 
Did you ever reach a point where you could be around your mom and not get sucked into her system of relationship?
Not exactly. To be honest, I dreaded having to deal with her. The best way I came up with was to tell myself she was "just some little old lady". (She was in her 80's by then.) After I started therapy, and began to understand what was going on, it was easier, but it was never easy. I kind of don't think time would have changed that. Her version of reality was based on what she wanted reality to be and that often had nothing to do with what looked like facts to me.
How much of this is normal for all people, and how much of it is characteristic of my mom's mental issues?
If you're talking about what I think you're talking about, I think it's a skill that's rare. I've seen a few people (including my mother) do it. It sounds like what you're describing is the ability to make something like a 180 degree switch in mood, tone, expression, etc in a nanosecond. Emotions aren't my best thing, but it's my perception that "normal" people can't do that. At least not very often. I can remember a situation where someone I worked for was dealing with a customer and was all sweetness and light. The customer walked out the door and my boss immediately switched to raving about how stupid and annoying that customer was. Not just that they were being a pain, but that they were actually, literally, stupid etc. I don't think many people can completely cover their contempt and then let it fly unfettered in an instant. Most people have to let some of their true feelings leak through, even if it's veiled.
Doesn't everyone put up something of a false front with other people? Just scratch the surface of authenticity discussions, and you find everyone commiserating about how challenging it is to be your true self with other people, especially for introverts.
I literally don't know. I think some of that probably goes on, if only because people think they're being polite and sparing other's feelings. On the other hand, personally, I'm not sure I know how to be anyone other than myself. As a default, I go for invisibility because I can't think fast enough, or remember well enough to pull off a different persona. I think everyone does some of this, but there are people who go WAY beyond the usual skill set. If your T has been shocked, I'm thinking your mother is one of those people. And I find them scary because there's no way I know of to have any idea what to expect next.
it seems "normal" to me.
It makes sense that it would seem normal. It's the version of reality you were raised with. I assumed a lot of things were "normal" too.
It feels like he's shutting it down, because my tendency is to theoretically follow the logic to its natural conclusion before redirecting it, and then I have a sense of closure on it instead of it feeling unresolved.
That makes sense. A lot of the time, I realize where something's going without having to follow it the last few steps to the end, but I think I do pretty much the same thing. And, my T pretty much lets me do it. At the same time, he manages to convey the idea that he doesn't think I'm a complete idiot. (I've accused him of faking that. He says he's not really THAT nice.) Asperger's could have something to do with how this plays out for you. Or, maybe, it's just a difference in communication styles between you and your T. (Which could amount to the same thing, I guess.) Have you tried to explain this to him?
If a client is sitting in his office crying, would he point out that her emotions are distorted? Or would he basically say, "Your sadness really makes sense in the context of your experiences.
The idea of someone sitting in an office crying is enough to make me want to run from the room. LOL I have no idea at all how that would play out, but I like your second scenario better, for sure.
Could the same thing happen for a cognitive distortion? "
Now that you say that, that's exactly what my T often does. I can remember him saying, in response to something I said, "I can see how you would think that, based on your experiences, but actually, you're wrong." That was a more extreme situation and it was a relief to hear "actually, you're wrong". But, I don't think he's ever just disagreed, he's usually, if not always, said something to indicate that he can understand why I see things the way I'm seeing them at the moment. I've found that helpful. I've been told I'm wrong most of my life. It's not real helpful to hear it from him too, unless he includes that he can follow my thought processes and they are logical and reasonable enough, considering the information I've had to base them on. Maybe your T hasn't really thought about that bit being important? Because I really think it helps a lot to hear it.
Could there be some space in there for allowing some cognitive distortions to sit in the conversation long enough to explore what's underneath them, instead of having to challenge them as soon as they surface, just like he would do for an NT's difficult or painful emotions?
That totally makes sense. (It seems to be about what I just described.) I can't see it as a problem, just as helpful. So maybe he really isn't aware of it?
 
In my experience, people who gaslight aren't willing to go to therapy with the people they gaslight.
Fro...


Not in mine. I've been therapy with one of my parents and they lied outright as well as to their own therapist. I knew this because I knew the facts and I knew what she said to her therapist - there was a release for my and her therapists to talk and when at one time I confronted her she acknowledged it.
 
If you're talking about what I think you're talking about, I think it's a skill that's rare. I've seen a few people (including my mother) do it. It sounds like what you're describing is the ability to make something like a 180 degree switch in mood, tone, expression, etc in a nanosecond. Emotions aren't my best thing, but it's my perception that "normal" people can't do that. At least not very often.

Okay, that makes more sense. I need to watch people more and see if I notice the kinds of switching in them that I've seen in her.

Have you tried to explain this to him?

I sent him that one email last week. He emailed back that he wants to discuss it more so he can understand better. I'm not sure I have a good way to explain it yet. It might take a while to work out a more nuanced understanding for both of us, or it might be a crazy idea that goes nowhere.

The idea of someone sitting in an office crying is enough to make me want to run from the room.

Me too. I've only really cried once in therapy, and that's when my T before this one was about to move away. It doesn't seem to me that it really accomplishes anything to try to bring actual emotions into the conversation.

Maybe your T hasn't really thought about that bit being important?

I don't know. He's pretty laid-back and introverted, which is very different from the T I had before him. He can function more on the logic level than my former T. But I don't think anyone who has ever interacted with me in-depth has ever engaged on the level of logic-as-expression-of-emotion. And maybe that's why, no matter how hard the T has worked in a particular session, I still walk out feeling invalidated and isolated. It might still not make any difference, though. I really don't know what to expect.

I've been therapy with one of my parents and they lied outright as well as to their own therapist.

Did the therapists catch the lies at all? How did they respond?

I don't know that I would describe most of the deceptions in our sessions as "outright lies", but there have definitely been a lot of distortions of facts in our family sessions. So many that it makes me tired and I don't even feel like addressing them anymore.

But I figured out something that might be part of what's going on for us. I don't think my mom and sister are really all that interested in facts. I think they're functioning on an emotional level that has nothing to do with facts, really, almost as if their whole purpose in engaging in the conversation is to feel better, nothing more, and that's only accomplished if I agree with them. Facts are mentioned, generalized, distorted, whatever, all in the service of justifying their emotion-stories and their emotional needs.They're not at all interested in whether the facts are accurate, only if my response helps them feel better. And challenging their version of the facts doesn't make them feel good, so they're not interested in accuracy at all, and it makes the conflict worse. Only warmth, empathy, pity, whatever...and agreement...make any positive impact on the flow of the conversation. My position on issues really has no relevance for them, no validity. All they want is for me to agree with them and feel badly for their pain. They're not trying to understand for the purpose of finding a mutually agreeable arrangement. To any degree they want to understand is only for the purpose of undermining my position.

Anyway, I don't know that it matters anymore. At our session last week, my sister announced towards the end that she wants the team to separate (which means...she wants me off the team so it's only her and my mom left). My mom said she wants that, too, but doesn't know how to make that work realistically with some intense projects we have coming up. We ended the session with the T saying I should consider what terms of separation I thought would be fair.

Part of me is furious that I'm being scapegoated like this. Kicking me off the team won't solve anything for them. But the famT said that's their problem, not mine. And part of me is relieved at the prospect of not having to deal with them anymore, of not being held back by their drama anymore.
 
I don't think my mom and sister are really all that interested in facts. I think they're functioning on an emotional level that has nothing to do with facts, really, almost as if their whole purpose in engaging in the conversation is to feel better,
I'm totally stunned. That's brilliant! I've absolutely never thought of that as a possibility, but it totally makes sense. (OK, it doesn't actually make sense, in my version of reality, but it seems to fit a lot of interactions I've been a part of. Maybe even more than I realize.)
Part of me is furious that I'm being scapegoated like this.
I don't blame you.
And part of me is relieved at the prospect of not having to deal with them anymore, of not being held back by their drama anymore.
Hang on to that thought, because I think you're going to be really glad about this down the road. It may not be without complications, but I think the good will outweigh the bad and you're going to be a lot happier going forward without them than they are without you. (But they'll never admit that.)
 
I've absolutely never thought of that as a possibility, but it totally makes sense.

My T today agreed. Then he said this is basically the very definition of codependency.

you're going to be a lot happier going forward without them than they are without you. (But they'll never admit that.)

Or they might blame me for the stress they're about to put themselves under. Really, it was already going to be intense with all three of us. I have no idea how they'll manage with just the two of them, even if they manage to hire help that is qualified, sufficiently available, and willing to put up with the intensity and micro-managing from them (which has been a problem with keeping people in the past). As people keep reminding me, that'll be their problem, not mine. I just feel badly for what they're about to do to themselves.
 
Or they might blame me for the stress they're about to put themselves under.
Probably. Because that's part of the pathology. They CAN'T be wrong, to blame, responsible, or anything else. It has to be someone else's fault. Being the scapegoat has been part of your job. They will most likely try to find someone else to fill the role, if you're no longer available,
I just feel badly for what they're about to do to themselves.
You're a much nicer person than I am. There's a saying that I like, "Sometimes God punishes us by giving us the things we think we want." I think they may be about to get what they deserve, even though they'll deflect most of it to others.
 
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