News Gender identification - when to start the conversation

[Deleted member 33052]

The ministry of education in my province is working to add the subject of gender identification to the classroom, beginning at the kindergarten level. From what I've heard so far, for very young children it'll be mostly to provide an environment of openness and acceptance by teachers and other students for children who appear uncomfortable in their assigned genders.

I was surprised and disappointed by the pushback by many parents who feel that this will encourage their children to (god forbid) explore and question their identity. How can that possibly be a bad thing?!?

Many primary school children here have chosen to start transitioning with the full support of their school staff. They get to make decisions based on their needs, rather than on fear or shame. The school provides a safe environment.

There's been a lot of press regarding this as children as young as eight years old have begun the process of transitioning. And wouldn't you know it, the bigots began ranting and fear mongering about how the province is *encouraging unnatural behaviour*.

So, opinions anyone? Is kindergarten to young to start the conversation? I would like to think that it would have started at home, even earlier, but I'm an extreme liberal.

 

[Friday]

Some of the pushback is going to be from people like me.

I'm a chick. Always have been. I rather enjoy it most of the time. If I'd been growing up in modern culture? I'd probably have been labeled something other than a "girl" &/or had people try and "help" me transition.

I was a tomboy. Shrug. Which still meant I was a girl. I played with the boys, I cut my hair wicked short a few times (#8 on the buzzers), I wore trousers, I got in playground fights rather than catty arguments, list goes on. I grew up. I enlisted in the military. I've been told more times than I can count that my balls are in the wrong place (yeah, yeah, yeah, they're so damn big I had to hike them up to my chest in order to be able to sit comfortably, suck it... No... Seriously. A little nipple action? Awesome ;)).

I'm not in the wrong body. Never have been.

Minus not being able to take a piss standing up (writing my name in the snow is really effing challenging. Possible. But challenging.), and idiots who tried to tell me what I could/couldn't do "because" I'm a chick? I've got zip zero zilch problems with it. And that's mostly sex, rather than gender, anyway. I'm also not butch, past puberty. I like looking femme, & playing rough. Shrug. My body. My choice.

Speaking as a student of anthropology? Gender is a fluid cultural construct, anyway. 100 years ago (in the West) secretaries were all men. That was a "mans" job. 50 years ago? It was a "woman's" job, as the steno pools will attest. Shift about in time and geography and there's virtually nothing that is inherently male/female in regards to gender roles. In one culture (mind blanking) it's the old WOMEN who run the government, the old MEN who raise the children, the PARENTS (of both sexes) who provide the workforce... Which is about as opposite of JudeoChristian-Western culture as it gets.

So I've got a little bit of a gripe with other people telling MY kids who/what they're "supposed" to be based on their personal preferences in activities & apparel :meh:

Do I take issue with Trans-folk? f*ck no.

We live in an age blessed with surgical options (although I hope to god modern medicine is considered barbaric in the near future), but outside of JudeoChristian Culture there has been a multiplicity of sex/gender roles for over 10,000 years of recorded history. It ain't a new concept. In point of fact, it was far more common for their to be FIVE common delineations, rather than two. It varied how cultures split them (sometimes by sex, sometimes by gender roles, sometimes by sexual attraction, sometimes by criteria we cannot even make heads nor tails of... Unless you prescribe to postprocessural fairytales, clearly my bias is that I think postprocessuralism is bullshit.... Although the theories I tend to agree with is that, like modern non-binary cultures, there's probably an age factor involved. Shrug. Probably doesn't mean was, and could be dead wrong. If they didn't leave written record? No way to wake the dead up and ask them. Anything beyond that is pure speculation.). Back to surgical options... People want that? Awesome. Don't? Great. Not my body. Not my say. Personal agency. Full stop.

So, yeah. People telling kids what they "have" to be? Trying to "help" them be who they think they "should" be? I take issue with it. Regardless of what side of the pendulum things are swinging to. That goes by about a zillion when it's MY kid they're trying to push into their uniform little box, and it's some huge soulless organization like religion, govt., or corporation doing so.

5 too young to start a convo about you can "be whatever you want to be when you grow up"? Nah. Ain't exactly true, but hey.

Dreams are built on knowing the possibility exists, grit & determination built on having to fight for it. Ease? A luxury of other people having done it in great numbers, first.

 

[Deleted member 41765]

Disagree. Five is not too young. I've been an elementary school teacher for 20 years now, with the bulk of that time spent in K/1st grade classrooms. At this point all of the schools in our district have gender unspecified bathrooms and all schools have begun as of last year, incorporating gender identity exploration. My students, by and large, have taken it matter of factly despite parental pushback somewhat along the lines of what has been written above. I see the minds of 5 year olds as incredibly complex, undermined, and fluid, with a deep capacity for empathy. It can only enrich the lives of students, and all human beings to consider alternate ways of existing in the world. And it is less of "be what you want to be when you grow up" and more of "be who you want to be and possibilities are open." It is the combination of nature and nurture that has left many within an adult stranglehold from which there is no escape. I applaud the possibility for change.

 

[Deleted member 33052]

Perhaps I didn't explain the province's mission clearly. No one is going to tell children to transition. Children will be supported if they feel a need to transition.

I don't agree that gender-related tasks (with the exception of producing more humans) relate to gender identity. This from another *tomboy* who feels comfortable in her strong body.

 

[Deleted member 41765]

You were clear.

 

[Ronin]

People telling kids what they "have" to be? Trying to "help" them be who they think they "should" be? I take issue with it.

See, but here's totally where we're in the same boat, though.

Forcing gender - one way or the other - simply doesn't work, does more damage than good, hell, doesn't do any good, I reckon people should be given freedom to be who they are - whoever that may be, cis or trans and of what flavor.

Not entirely sure about 'too young' just not in the fashion of 'when you grow up', just thinking however kids want to express themselves at that point, in regards to clothing / activities / socialization, if it's to their benefit, they should be let to. But I agree that kids don't think of the gender the same, they're kids. Adult concepts on this don't compute the same way.

*more words maybe later

 

[Ronin]

Edited to add:

People think of 'transition' too dramatically, far too often.
Often it's not about things like hormones / changing whole lifestyle / stuff, but to begin with, being allowed to change names and identifiers how you feel fit, or go pee to the right goddamn place, or just play sport games with the gender you're comfortable with, instead of segregated & strict groups on that.

I don't think fluidity on that would harm anyone, much less kids, who naturally think of many things as way less strict categories, black & white, reality&not, and the like.

 

[Deleted member 41765]

@Ronin Exactly. Although, in my experience, most kids do not naturally think in either/or terms, they are conditioned to.

 

[Deleted member 33052]

And at home, it's as simple as accepting that your little boy prefers the *pink* section of the store, or allowing your child to make unconventional clothing choices. Again, it's not about forcing children into roles or genders, or anything else, it's about standing back and letting them find their own.

 

[Deleted member 44579]

I think it's OK... Most of these kids seem to struggle and be unhappy because they feel they are the wrong gender....if we can help and provide a safe, positive impact then surely that's a good thing...

What's not a good thing to tell them it's disgusting... It's wrong.... People don't realise how much that kid hurts already.....

Any child that is confused should be supported, loved... But I know that doesn't happen.. And that sucks..

 

[ninja]

I feel a number of different ways,
one I think we should be able to explore and experiment with our identities to find a spot that works well.

two I think it is important to recognize there are some things we cannot change about ourselves. And we can learn to love those parts, through seeing them from other perspectives and doing so could maybe be empowering.

I also think we need room to change our minds. Children should not have to be charged with the decision to declare an aspect of their identity fixed. Perhaps their identity will change with time, as we do not know what is to come in the future, and that is perfectly fine. Our world operates by identifying people by certain 'fixed' characteristics (thinking drivers license with gender and name), that is just the way it works, but that does not mean it is accurate, or that we have to identify with how others perceive us.

When it comes to identity, I just think it is very important there is room to change and evolve. And I hope we can continue moving towards a place in society where we interact with people on a human to human level, with dogged respect of commonalities and differences.

 

[Friday]

Forcing gender - one way or the other - simply doesn't work, does more damage than good, hell, doesn't do any good, I reckon people should be given freedom to be who they are - whoever that may be, cis or trans and of what flavor.

Yup.

It's the codifying it that bothers me. Governments directing kids who do this, need to do that. Religions saying it. Anyone, really.

I could have short hair & wear trousers & still be a girl... Because girls did that. Not a lot, at the time, but "pixie" hairstyles were popularized a generation earlier, trousers almost a century ago. No one tried to tell me I "had" to go sit at the "fluid table" or only use the unisex bathroom, or must be a part of some "we're different!" club... Just because I was a "representative of blah blah blah blah" (which is what the schools in my area are pushing for, anyone who doesn't neatly fit in binary definitions has to be segregated & "redefined" :wtf: ) Which is still far LESS codified than word coming down on high from the government insisting upon it. I was branded as nothing more politicized than a representative of childhood. It's inevitable that kids get used as game pieces in adult battles, I just don't like it.