Gf And I Broke Up... But I Don't Feel Like I Can See New People Without Hurting Her...

[scorpio2012]

@Joseph_PDX - Thanks, this truly was a learning experience, and a difficult one at that. If only I had known then what I know now. Unfortunately, we don't have the luxury of turning the clock back. He mentioned this too, that it's hard for him to dial it back. I told him let's not 'dial it back' but let's just clear the air, but he seemed conflicted. He clearly stated he didn't know what to do, and that he was confused. I think what hurts the most is there seems to be no interest on his part to salavage even our friendship. We had a good connection, it was deep. At the end there was no proper closure. Nothing nice was said, he didn't give me a chance. It's almost as if when I tried to go see him it was too much for him and he made a split decsion to not see me and end it right there. Literally.

I also think he purposefully was avoiding conversations that may have turned out being emotional. Ultimately I found myself walking on eggshells. I feel hurt, but I also can now see how his behavior was overwhelmingly dictated by his PTSD and depression. In that sense, I can't stay angry with him despite the feeling of being hurt. I have to keep reminding myself that initially I was the one who walked away from him. He has every reason to feel that I abandoned him. I have to admit I got tired of him constantly trying to control the communication too.

I do understand that he probably needs to be left alone and sort things out. Also, he himself may not quite realize how this is all affecting him. He is not in therapy aside from his medicines. I don't think it's appropriate for me to contact him anymore. 4 weeks have gone by with zero communication between us. It's probably best for me to just realize that I did my absolute best to save this, but in the end it does take 2 to move the relationship forward no matter how bad the other person wants it, if the other isn't on board then you have to move on. I just hope that one day he realizes that he was somebody special for me, and regardless of his situation, he has a beautiful soul. My only true dissappointment (aside from the break up) here is that I never got and still do not have a true sense of closure. But what can one really do?

 

[saffy]

So I feel a sense of closure growing because of that.

That is good Joseph :)

I cannot comment on why she was so quick to move on, she can only answer that really, or it will be assumptions.
I would have to say though, as a sufferer, if it happened to me I would move on quick sharp as I would have seen this as a rejection and there is no going back on that. I would never be able to trust the sincerity of the person again as a couple. I would fear a repeat rejection, if that makes sense. But that is me

I feel now that you can at least feel that if you did find someone else you connect to you will concentrate on this person and yourself. You will still have time for the 'ex' when she needs it but you have to also look after your own needs too, this is very important.

Best wishes for 2013 :)

Saffy :)

 

[Joseph_PDX]

Update:

Hi again everyone. I felt that I should update the story in case this would have value for anyone reading. The Ex and I met up for drinks and cigars about a week ago. We interacted very well, very affectionately, but not to the point of being romantic. Just two very close friends. It was very nice and we stayed out past 2:00 am.

My "filter" that day was so removed I had her busting up laughing with all the unvarnished opinions I was offering about everything... I am not normally like that, but beer is a magical liquid. lol.

She interestingly enough took the opportunity to ask me in that moment, "What's the worst characteristic I have?" To which I quickly responded, "Your need to run away from people and leave them behind." (I didn't think that one through... as I said, beer/no filter.. but she took it well enough.) She was introspective and recognized that she's hurt people she's dated and especially any kids that have been in the middle, especially her daughter. She kept saying, "I know I'm broken." To which I would say, "not broken, scarred...there's a difference. Things can get better for you." This brought her down... she didn't like the concept of being scarred. But I tried to point to her that it meant that her experiences were not her fault and that her best trait in my eyes is the strength she's displayed to survive everything she has. What I think brought her down more was that deep down she knows that to be "fixed" that she'll have to face the difficult work of therapy.

The conversation quickly turned to all the reasons why she doesn't have time/interest/energy for therapy. And that she wasn't sure what she had, i.e.; bi-polar, narcissism, borderline...etc... I told her point blank... "No... you most likely have PTSD." I mentioned that on all of those 3:00 am insomniac nights I'd had staring at my phone in the dark in bed together I was actually reading about PTSD. To which she said, "And I thought that you were emailing people to cheat on me." We laughed together at that one...hehe. Classic PTSD right? lol. I mentioned how all the same patterns that people discuss here about feeling the need to isolate, disassociation, feelings of being overwhelmed by intimacy etc... are the same as her pattern. To which seem seemed to take in somewhat.

So I got the message of PTSD out there. I don't know if the seed of it will stick with her or not. We quickly switched after that to lighter subjects such as climbing, mountaineering, her new puppy etc... The night ended very well. And I was covered in the scent of her perfume... (made me want to blow my brains out frankly...lol. SUCH torture! lol)

A few days later I sent an email to her to try to offer her the best opportunity I could for therapy. I had called around and found a therapist who had PTSD experience, a sliding scale and who would bill me directly for any of her visits. I didn't tell her that I was paying, but simply that she wouldn't have to worry about the expense should she choose to go. Her response surprised me. She in effect pushed me away pretty hard by relaying that even though she knows that to have a healthy relationship she'd need to work through things, but that she is perfectly content to be single and doesn't want to find out what might "come to the surface" in therapy. She even promised her daughter that she'd not date again until she was out of school. (i.e.; 8-9 years from now...lmao) She feels that her daughter deserves to not be exposed to the drama of her dating.

Frankly her pulling out the whole daughter card is a load of horseshit, but it doesn't matter. (Trust me I have my reasons for believing that). Regardless, I read the "message" loud and clear...hehe. She's effectively shut the door hard on wanting a relationship, regardless of how nice our interactions were last week. I told her though that I respected her choice. And that if this is the path she was choosing that I'd let it all go and support her.

So there we are... :-) I can honestly tell you guys that I gave it everything I had. And treated her as well as I think is possible. I am frankly a guy who is really, really worth having. (See how intact my self esteem is? ;-)) But I wish her the best. It would give me such pleasure to hear down the road that she did go therapy and that her life experience was improving. I also hope that I can get to a place where I can still be her friend and actually see her in person. Right now I get triggered/heartbroken by the push/pull of it all and have needed to pull away from her and embrace the "void" as one my best friends calls it. lol

God! If only the pathway to recovery were easier for sufferers. :-( It is such a tradegy that her and I didn't work out. We really had a LOT going for us. I suppose the only thing that's been giving me comfort is to come here and interact with others in this situation with the hope that I can hopefully contribute in some way to salvaging/saving/preempting somebody else's tradegy.

Weirdly... I have a smile on my face right now. Thank you for everyone's thoughts and energy. :-)

 

[saffy]

Hi Jo

Thanks for the update. :)

It sounds like you were very happy when you met her again and was good to just have fun with no negative thoughts. However, I am going to be as honest and upfront as I can with you.

Your need to run away from people and leave them behind.

I would admire that honesty. I need people to point out my actions sometimes. SOmetimes I do not realise I run away. :)

What I think brought her down

Sorry, you are assuming again.

was that deep down she knows that to be "fixed" that she'll have to face the difficult work of therapy.

or it could be that you just pointed out that she has come no further and still cant help herself. (that is what I would have thought ;) )

not broken, scarred

A scar is permanent, broken can be fixed. I hope that makes sense and relates to the above. :)

And I thought that you were emailing people to cheat on me."

assumptions can be very damaging eh ;)

offer her the best opportunity I could for therapy

as soon as I started reading that I started to shake my head a tut. This is a rookie mistake, sorry. I know you had the best of intentions but again you have marched in and projected that she cannot help herself and her efforts so far have been stupid and naive. She might be afraid of perceived failure rather than the therapy itself. It is also about your ego, by the look of it. Just my opinion.

And again you are assuming you know what is better for her than she does. Hope that makes sense

She feels that her daughter deserves to not be exposed to the drama of her dating.

I felt like that for the same reasons. I was not in the position to start opening up wounds and be emotionally drained. My priorities were to keep my children safe and from abuse and anguish or worry for their mum.

I think she wants and needs a friend not to be fixed or pitied.

Frankly her pulling out the whole daughter card is a load of horseshit, but it doesn't matter.

Not at all, you have taken this personally and not considered the bigger picture. This also explains what you continued to say and how you said it, very defensive and pretending you do not care, when you do really. Your ego has been damaged.

In any fact any mother will put their children first, or should do, no matter who the person is. I am not convinced that this is about avoiding therapy altogether.

And treated her as well as I think is possible.

Again you have done things based on what you think you should do rather than seeing what you can actually do for her. Maybe this is ego, who knows. I admire your effort though ;)
Best of luck for the future Joseph :)
Saffy :)

 

[Joseph_PDX]

Saffy I always find your directness refreshing. You are right about my ego being hurt. You are right that casual assumptions are harmful. You are right about my inexperience and my difficulty to know what to do and that I have likely mistepped multiple times. I suppose that's why these forums are so useful. If she had handed me her instruction manual when we first met and had bookmarked the "PTSD" chapter I would have surely fared better. But as we've discussed, I'm learning some of these lessons far too late... :-(

Just for the sake of accuracy in our mutual analysis, I think your take on some of my other misalignments is off on a couple of points, particularly about how much I'm assuming. As a scientist I'm obnoxiously gifted as one who recognizes patterns. And I have spent thousands of hours closely interacting with my friend. I have my reasons for not diving into all the details of how I know that the "daughter card" was being used disingeniously and that it fit a pattern I'd seen many times used on myself and others of her needing to lie to herself and others about the "why" behind her decisions. But as this is a public forum I don't think it's appropriate to get into the meat of it. It is true that she's very protective of her kiddo... no question. But I believe that she would choose the same path, kiddo or not. She's just trying to defend her choice with a rationale that looks good and that others will accept. When in reality I believe that what she's really afraid of has more to do with the "what might surface" angle of our conversation, which, in her own words "[she] needs to man up, quit making excuses and just face it." She will when she's ready... hopefully. :-)

Many of our friends, and her family in particular are bewildered and even angry that we are not together. They don't understand... and saying that your motivation is protecting your child goes down easier and is more readily accepted.

Bottom line is that I'd submit to you that I'm assuming a lot less then you're assuming that I'm assuming... ;) I just can't download my brain's database of innumerable interactions with this person into this forum (at least not easily...lol). But I value very much your challenge of me and am open to you tearing apart my take on things again and again and again. I love that sort of thing.. :-)

Regardless, what's done is done. I care deeply for my friend. And this forum has taught me some lessons that hopefully I can use down the road with her if the opportunity arises. Thank you again Saffy for your energy and input.

 

[Tinyflame]

Dear Joseph, it is a very hard road. I have a "Scientist's brain", (at least on paper), and there-in lays the connundrum. PTSD, in it's many shapes and forms, at it's essence is not predictable. And definitely not linear (hence the 'peeling an onion' analogy). To try to control it and understand it as such (as a sufferer), will lead to much frustration.

It can't be assumed what she feels and thinks. But I agree that she is correct, at a level I fear you don't understand. Therapy (potentially) would very likely put herself and life into a tailspin, something she honestly sounds like she does not see as an option for her while responsible for her daughter. Truly, who would pick up the slack? Who would ensure her daughter's needs are met? (Particularly when one does not know how long or how deep 'revisited' suffering will go. It is not a question of memories, but reliving it. Except, as Anthony says, worse the second time around). Has anyone addressed her 'realities'- offered that kind of committed help?

Personally, my lows have been nothing short of torturous.

If I were her, or perhaps if you think of what she *may* be feeling, I would feel fear, mistrust, and a very very big wall or divide between how you think of ptsd, and what she knows of it, living it. I would feel damaged.

The danger comes, when we think we know the depth's of another's pain, and *can* underestimate it. Forget or overlook the positives of what is 'right', what she accomplishes every day, the person she's become (and is), the great parts of your relationship. Not to say you do that, just for any of us, in general. We can (sometimes) be so thinking we know how to help others, we miss the fact we should be working on ourselves (who we know best ;) ).

I am glad you have found peace and closure. I think a relationship with a ptsd sufferer requires a tremendous amount of patience and forgiveness. The heart of the relationship- over and above sex and the good times- is much like supporting someone trying to attempt to walk again, after an accident. (And that has no guarantee it will be possible). A million failed attempts, sweat, blood and tears of work put in by the sufferer, endless hours of worry, anger, frustration and support from the supporter, and acceptance, and a great deal of strength to hold on to those parallel bars and take the first step, every ounce of energy, strength and concentration needed. (With the caveat that when as a sufferer you fail, more damage is done, that is the risk you take. And everything is unknown). BUT, similarly, you'll probably not find 2 happier people, if a 'baby step' is achieved. :) So many 'normal' (smaller) things are lost, but such greater value in that which is found.

It's an extremely challenging road Joseph. It's probably not a great fit for someone who needs assurance regularly. You sound like a good person, and I wish you the very best. :hug:

 

[Tinyflame]

Dear Joseph, I guess what I'm trying to say (as a sufferer), is that all the useful suggestions, 'help', or judgments of others, no matter how well-intentioned, or the abuse(s) I've taken within relationships, have done little to help give me the courage to try harder to help myself, or the hope, or peace. It takes the oppsite, I think to provide hope to try.

 

[Joseph_PDX]

Personally, my lows have been nothing short of torturous.

On whatever level I can emphathize... I am sorry for your experience. My sympathies. :-( I do know pain (of my own kind), and at a minimum I think that I can relate to what it feels like to have to survive circumstances beyond your control.

It can't be assumed what she feels and thinks. But I agree that she is correct, at a level I fear you don't understand. Therapy (potentially) would very likely put herself and life into a tailspin, something she honestly sounds like she does not see as an option for her while responsible for her daughter.

This is an excellent point and I accept it wholeheartedly. I do need to be careful of superimposing my perceptions onto what I think her reality actually feels like. I'm sure I can never fully understand what she feels. She very well may be sensing instictively that her very survival might be at risk were she to proceed with therapy. Thank you for the reminder of that... :-)

It's an extremely challenging road Joseph. It's probably not a great fit for someone who needs assurance regularly. You sound like a good person, and I wish you the very best.

For what it's worth I was willing stand next to her at every step if she were to ask me to be there... I certainly wasn't perfect... but I was willing. I just didn't understand what she needed until it was perhaps too late for us to remain a couple. However I suppose as her continued friend I still am there... we text every other day and interact warmly. Perhaps someday she will ask me to do more... If so I'll be ready. :-)

 

[Tinyflame]

You see, dear Joseph, you do understand. :)

Perhaps 99% of the healing, or being ready to tackle the ptsd (through whatever modalities best help each individual, therapy included), is the groundwork of innumerable instances of trust, laughs, acceptance, value.

(Because otherwise, it's very hard to fight for yourself, when there doesn't seem to be value in yourself worth fighting for. I think it's safe to say that most sufferers are pretty familiar (to no avail) with self-criticism, self-reproach, shame, regret, and (desperately) wanting to be different, etc.) We're "good" at that but it's just usually not effective! :(

I'm sorry you'd had sad times, too. :(

Yes, I think those are the times- the experiences, for a sufferer- that are 'beyond survivable', as it were. Even after the fact, they don't feel like something that was experienced and overcome, but more so in the realm of "this can't possibly be happening", though it is.

:hug:

 

[saffy]

If she had handed me her instruction manual when we first met

haha, No one said that it was going to be easy hun, no relationship is, it is always a learning curve :)

particularly about how much I'm assuming

That is fine I can only go by what you have written really and some points do sound like this. But it is best out in the open, I think.

Saffy I always find your directness refreshing

Thank you, most people runaway or get the wrong idea. So the fact you find it refreshing is also refreshing :)

She will when she's ready... hopefully.

She will in time. She will realise that it is time to start facing it, especially when the child is older and she has less focus on her. (it did for me anyway) Knowing that you are just there without pushing her too much, rather than delicate encouragement instead, shows that you accept her for who she is no matter what she decides good for her. If that makes sense. :)

Bottom line is that I'd submit to you that I'm assuming a lot less then you're assuming that I'm assuming...

That is good to hear Joseph and will refrain from assuming that you are assuming so much ;)

Thank you again Saffy for your energy and input.

No problem Hunny :) anytime, its nice that someone likes my directness for a change :)

any more? bring it on ha ha :)


best wishes
Saffy :)

Ps, a scientist, wow. In what area, can I ask? and is that a snake you are holding?

 

[Joseph_PDX]

Ps, a scientist, wow. In what area, can I ask? and is that a snake you are holding?

I am a Microbiologist... :-) Keeps my brain full... lol. And my pic is from Thanksgiving and that is a turkey leg. I'm going after it the "old way." Like our ancestors... lmao. (And yes there was drinking involved...hehe.)

 

[Sailorgal]

She kept saying, "I know I'm broken." To which I would say, "not broken, scarred...there's a difference. Things can get better for you." This brought her down... she didn't like the concept of being scarred. But I tried to point to her that it meant that her experiences were not her fault and that her best trait in my eyes is the strength she's displayed to survive everything she has.

You know it's funny that this is almost WORD FOR WORD the conversation my ex and I had (are you sure you're not him? LOL). He's a very logical, analytical guy. Oh momma mia... :confused:

Joseph, bless your heart. But there is "doing a good thing" and "doing the right thing." My ex would've built me my own hospital and hired the best doctors and therapists if I wanted to. At one point I wanted counseling but there is a difference of "getting help" versus "getting healed." Healing is scary because it requires a giving and sacrifice on our part. Junebug is right that we don't trust ourselves much less trust anyone else. We don't want to do anything - just survive and breath. If we move in to the daylight, we put ourselves out there to be a target. :nailbiting:

You tried doing good things but the right thing was to just show you cared and let her be. I understand the card situation - as PTSD, we play victim and tough cookie at the same time. We want you to think we are still in control somehow.

I'll tell you from personal experience that hearing scarred is scary because it means you can see the damage and there is no hiding it. Also, when you are scarred, it's over and done. It's not a fresh wound. Broken sounds much more sympathetic - it's the whole victim mentality. Anyhow, future notes, dating 101: best not to give an analysis. LOL!

Glad you got out and gained some perspective before too much damage was done as she is obviously not in a place to really move forward in her healing. I wish I found this forum before my ex broke up with me as he was at his wits end with me. Hmmmm, apparently gourmet cooking was overshadowed by PTSD.

Good luck in your future relationship(s). And to a healthier 2013!