Has anyone worked on avoidant attachment in therapy?

[grit]

Attachment isn’t a scale where you move through attachment styles. Avoidant attachment isn’t someth...

I think having a 20 years of marriage where you are understood, loved and cared for is secure attachment regardless of what else one may be working on self or otherwise. I think the fact you are able to do that shows your avoidant is default to you but not a pathology because you are able to see it consciously and work with it.

You do not know my history but I can tell you it is possible to move from one style of attachment to another depending how life unfolds. We are not static. We can change. I am not practising same attachment as I was in my teen or my early 20s. I have matured and also changed a lot.

The only reason I believe and feel I have secured attachment is I feel accepted for my avoidance issues and still loved and I also sometimes got out of my own limitation and try to meet his needs at my discomfort of trying or learning but consciously. No more sleep walking for me.

I am happy for you arriving this place where you can attend to your own issues and still maintain a marriage for this long...that is a lot even for a person without PTSD.

 

[somerandomguy]

Is this biology? The dynamic of the woman needing the man (to survive)?

No. Biology doesn't work that way. That could be a social construct, but I don't think you'll see anyone arguing persuasively that in the Western world women must lean on men to survive.

An actual biological dynamic would be, for example, that babies need contact comfort in order to survive. "Failure to thrive" is an actual biological thing. But male-female relationship dynamics, outside of reproductive acts, are social constructs, not biological dynamics.

 

[grit]

I can see this playing out in relationships. I mean in a number of my past relationships a dynami...

Absolutely no stupid at all. This is quite common in PTSD sufferers. In my own journey (still in the trenches), I disowned my dependency because as an infant, I was left alone for too long or starved...(I can only talk about things I experienced during transferences in therapy and in dreams). And the result of behaviours I have.

Extreme independence is just as pathological as extreme dependence. almost every human condition is spectrum and to go to the extreme is problematic in most situations.

There are no needs just relationships. You want a relationship (that wanting or needing is the need). No one really needs anyone, you can buy almost every service that is there but you still want the relationship..ask yourself why? No one can answer that for you. When you are alone and yearning..what are you yearning for? what are you feeling?

I think for me I had no love at infancy...at least that was my understanding. I came to a place where I felt I could never be loved by anyone...and I accepted that. I also came to realize, I could love others..and this was a great for my recovery. Then weirdly, I met my husband and it took a while to have being loved in sink into my subconsciousness and become part of my default...not something I notice intellectually.

it is possible you could not depend a parent when you were baby and unfortunately this has become your default...because you survived that your body still think you will survive without others...after all you survived without the first caretaker not taking care of you in a loving way.
however, the fact you want a relationship tells me (and I am not important or anything here) that you are capable of loving but have some barriers to accepting others to love you..hence avoidance is here.

My best approach to my avoidant was to tell my husband what I need: PLENTY OF SOLO TIME after work and in the weekends. and when I ask it I would say something like, you know I love you but I want to be alone now...he is not confused and he is not thinking I am annoyed or pissed or anything. I say what I want to do and he gets it.

Your needs for avoidance are valid but you may need to communicate to others rather than assuming they should know. This may help if the relationship is good.

No. Biology doesn't work that way. That could be a social construct, but I don't think you'...

Thank you for this comment. The flip side is why men need women for then? right? We are all babies and still need love, touch and support.

 

[somerandomguy]

The flip side is why men need women for then? right? We are all babies and still need love, touch and support.

Sure, but as adults we don't need social or physical contact to actually stay alive. We won't live as long or be as physically or mentally healthy as we could be if we have social relationships, but we can keep living without them.

 

[grit]

Sure, but as adults we don't need social or physical contact to actually stay alive. We won't live...

yes of course. Also IMHO, even a lot of babies survive the worst situations...sure they survived does not mean they have the best lives but humans can truly survive a lot of crazy and nasty things...but to live joyfully and truly live, one needs others and that means giving love or receiving love or both.

 

[joeylittle]

but to live joyfully and truly live, one needs others and that means giving love or receiving love or both

Other humans, or simply others? (Animals, a belief in a deity....)

 

[Tinyflame]

I tried to find this to add just one thing from my perspective, though it may be a silly addition, as I don't understand 'attachment' or 'avoidance' in the ways most people would, or perhaps I do but it's more in layman's terms, not a clinical definition.

For myself I engage in much avoidance, and yes inter-relationally find it difficult to express closeness, or 'needs' (or identify them, or deserve them). Yes I am fiercely independent (mostly), and yes I grew up having to be.

I know there are schools of thought saying do not attach to anyone or any thing, but to me that would preclude love or caring or connection. What is not worth losing is not worth too much. And personally I think many people attach more easily to animals for a reason usually not said- they are forgiving and not judgmental.

Similarly, with my history (including neglect) / abuse, being avoidant (particularly fearfully) seems just a question of association/ the past. Or perhaps, where does one begin and the other end, Idk? It's pretty 'sane' and rational to avoid pain, I think. Surely for it to be a step-wise process- and I mean really small steps, if it's genuine and not to overwhelm.

There are however another's words that come to mind that wrap the whole thing up to me, no matter how you define it, and might help @Justmehere to overcome it, no matter the complexities: Antoine de Saint-Exupery said, :If you want to build a ship, don't drum up men to gather wood, divide the work, and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast and endless sea"

That is, the common sense- to want to overcome, means you will get there, simply by the doing, not just the thinking. Which sounds obtuse but really isn't!

What needs is it that other people can meet? In the majority of the relationships I've been in, the guy has eventually complained that I "don't need him". And my thought is kind of "Well, no, but I WANT you around, so what's the problem?".. Needing" someone seems pretty demanding. Like an imposition? I'm pretty sure I grew up thinking it was a waste of time "needing" anything from anyone. If you need something, you'd better solve the problem yourself. So, what am I missing here?

I agree @scout86 , ^^^, but could it be that in particular men, show they care often by what they do. So if there seems nothing left to do, they feel the love is either not wanted or rejected? Because I remember one story, they told some H to tell his W he loved her, she said he didn't he said, "What do you mean I washed your car 3 times last week!" :) :rolleyes:

.I get the idea, but it seems like a myth, and somehow, you have to be able to survive without it, don't you? Because what it it's not there? What if you're not all that lovable, or you're not lucky enough to have run across the right person? What if no one WANTS to care for you and support you?

I think this ^^^^ is the purpose of connection, or non-avoidance, or attachment or whatever one wants to call it; each person leads the other to see who they themself really are, to come to know themself. Maybe even more so than knowing each other. So thoughts or fears like that- that no one would want to care or support you, or never would, (because 'you' are 'you' is implied), are busted. Just as you bust the same or other thoughts for them. Simply by risking the connection, and simply by being 'you'.

 

[grit]

One thing I find that hurts the most is we feel (in the western culture) and I live in Canada that we must be categorized. What is attachment? What is avoidant? At the end of the day, I feel being in relationship requires certain consideration because one is sharing space, time, body (maybe), effort and psyche....so one needs to be aware of one's boundaries and one needs to be aware of others boundaries and in order to have any success, one needs to expand sometimes and constrict sometimes.

Whatever your avoidance are, just learn how to recognize them yourself and not wait for someone else to find and be confused and try to explain back to you or create other confusion. If you need time alone, ask. If you need space, ask. In order to be in relationship, people need to use verbal mechanism so no matter how different you think you are, if you are with a person who wants to be around you, it is up to you to show who you are and ask what you need and labels are not really good in relationships.

One day you will need a person...you can get sick or old or lose a skill or/and you cannot get up! you can get into accident or whatever...independence is great but you still have to be human who even cares about those you may pay to wipe your butt if you cannot do it yourself.

I am not saying this is a must but avoidance attachment and having relationship requires you to be also logical and reasonable about what you want and what you expect.

If every guy is telling you they cannot reach you, maybe you are dating the wrong men (you are deeply and subconsciously attracted those who do not reach you) or maybe you are subconsciously closed and do not know it yourself. I think a man telling you he cannot reach you is actually a good man (at that level) cause he is verbalizing what is wrong in the situation. rather than bringing his own reaction of everything else. So explore, find out what is it he or she...not sure your gender...they are looking for and try to learn something about yourself that maybe you do not see it but other can see. This kind of conversation is meant to bring people closer not drive them apart...it is sort of connecting to be able to have this type of conversation. I think personally, you do not see yourself how others see you. There is a huge gap of perception.

 

[Suzetig]

I think having a 20 years of marriage where you are understood, loved and cared for is secure attachment regardless of what else one may be working on self

That’s a complete lack of understanding of attachment theory - attachment theory speaks to your behaviour in attachment relationships, not your capacity to form attachment relationships.

Given approximately 30% of the population have secure attachment patterns, that means approximately 70% don’t, split nearly equally between anxious avoidant attachment and anxious ambivalent attachment with a tiny (5%) with a disorganised attachment pattern your not suggesting that 70% of the population don’t have enduring relationships with others surely?

So, for example someone with an avoidant attachment style don’t necessarily seek out their attachment figure for support, care or comfort, they tend towards self soothing and self reliant behaviours in relationships, will be distant from their partner or disconnected. Their security isn’t found in their close relationships as it would be if their attachment pattern was secure. It’s incredibly simplistic to suggest that someone with an avoidant attachment style avoids being in relationships - simplistic and inaccurate.

The length of relationship is utterly irrelevant in determining attachment style, proximity seeking behaviours, the presence of a secure base, the internal working model of relationships all point to attachment style. Attachment is a clinical concept, and assessment of attachment style is a complex process - many professionals talk about attachment when they mean relationship, or bonding, or connection (ie the child had a good attachment to their new foster carer) but none of these point to attachment patterns or determine attachment style.

If you’re not sure what is meant by attachment, or avoidant in the context of attachment go back and read the literature - they are clinically defined terms and while there’s inevitably some degree of social construct which sits around attachment theory current research is pretty consistent.

 

[grit]

That’s a complete lack of understanding of attachment theory - attachment theory speaks to your behav...

I am sorry but attachment theory is not a behaviour.
here is a sample borrowed from old fashion wikipedia. Attachment theory - Wikipedia

Attachment theory

is a psychological model that attempts to describe the dynamics of long-term and short-term interpesonal relationshi between humans. However, "attachment theory is not formulated as a general theory of relationships. It addresses only a specific facet":how human beings respond within relationships when hurt, separated from loved ones, or perceiving a threat.Essentially all infants become attached if provided any caregiver, but there are individual differences in the quality of the relationships. In infants, attachment as a motivational and behavioral system directs the child to seek proximity with a familiar caregiver when they are alarmed, with the expectation that they will receive protection and emotional support. john Bowlby believed that the tendency for primate infants to develop attachments to familiar caregivers was the result of evolutionary pressures, since attachment behavior would facilitate the infant's survival in the face of dangers such as predation or exposure to the elements.

Unless you are struggling in your marriage, if it is relatively a peaceful and safe marriage where you can manage issues relatively healthy, you are in secured relationship but you have some avoidance personality that is accepted in this frame of marriage. Attachment is not merely a behaviour where one can be conditioned. It goes much deeper than that.

 

[Tinyflame]

So, for example someone with an avoidant attachment style don’t necessarily seek out their attachment figure for support, care or comfort, they tend towards self soothing and self reliant behaviours in relationships, will be distant from their partner or disconnected. Their security isn’t found in their close relationships as it would be if their attachment pattern was secure. It’s incredibly simplistic to suggest that someone with an avoidant attachment style avoids being in relationships - simplistic and inaccurate.

^^ Totally agree with this and @Suzetig 's post. I'd venture to say the process of doing otherwise than what is known would be stressful itself.

Similarly:

One day you will need a person...you can get sick or old or lose a skill or/and you cannot get up! you can get into accident or whatever...independence is great but you still have to be human who even cares about those you may pay to wipe your butt if you cannot do it yourself.

I find this view opposite to those who are independent; firstly, it's a privilege not afforded to all to be able to afford to pay someone else to 'wipe their butt' and in the absence of resources many will do without; secondly forecasting being in future need is certainly not motivation for me to secure relationships (unwise or not, that to me is using another- in fact, if my need was so great I wouldn't allow them to sacrifice their life for me, or it would be hard to allow the care- out of love for them); thirdly, I wouldn't care less if I had to 'wipe the butt' of someone I loved- maybe because that's a 'butt' I love, avoidant or not!- their need is not their identity (to me), nor would characterize the relationship, the relationship would exist first and foremost (and are we any different with ptsd? What requires any one else to tolerate it or accept it?). But lastly an independent person will have a washcloth between their teeth first before they'd ask for help (or could ask for help). It's not so simple. But neither does it preclude enduring relationships.

JMHO.

 

[grit]

That’s a complete lack of understanding of attachment theory - attachment theory speaks to your behav...

I want to first say I hope this does not come off as argumentative and hostility.

I do not know you and you know yourself better than anyone and that you know your marriage and your reaction to issues in that relatiosnhip better than anyone here.

It is OK to have different opinions and not to resort to personal callings and stuff.

Nothing demonstrates a secured attachment of adult as a long term and happy marriage. Every relationship has it is ups and downs but a happy marriage is happy marriage where people are loved, respected and differences are allowed (what that diferences are is up to each couple).

I have a severe CPTSD where I was abused the first 18yrs of my life severely and violently. I spend the last 30yrs perfecting that abuse into denial, avoidant and disorganization attachment and many other behaviours that I rather not dwell on.

I am married now for while and I am lucky to have a happy and satisfying marriage where my avoidant is no barrier and is accepted as part of me and where I also am aware of my limitation and also my impact on others. This is not a short cut. This took a life time to achieve.

Some people have anxiety, some have addiction, some have avoidant, some have workholic or perfection or obsession...everybody has something they can work on and improve. Mine is PTSD, dissociation and avoidant in intimite level. do I let them define me no. Do I wear them as a badge no.

What I am trying to say is this...it is very easy to get lost in theory when living in practical world.
I do not know your avoidant style. I will leave it to the fact you have a full life and it is and can be very different from mine or anyone else.

But at the end for me, I feel, my avoidant is very manageable because I verbalise it. I know when I am triggered and it is not impacting my marraige in a negative way but yet I know I can be avoidant when i need.I am no longer avoidant by default and just feel powerless or hopeless in it. Those days are over for me...at least for now. Who knows what tomorrow brings.