I probably could be friends with my therapist as well. I realize that her kindness falls under a professional category though and it has been very helpful. I had no concept of how relationships work in healthy ways. I haven't had very many of those...ever. I realize that I won't see her one day but I hope to put in to place the skills I learned there. I just happen to be someone that learns better by practicing or by example. I am greatly aware that it has boundaries and that boundaries are healthy. I probably haven't had good boundaries with people. I either give so much I am exhausted or I expect they will leave me anyway so I leave first.
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How Close Is Too Close For Therapists And Clients?
- Post starter Frenzy3674
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In my job, I have individual clients that are children. Every so often, I cross paths with their parents. I know that I could be good friends with some of these people in real life, but I basically just let it stay casual in a social media kind of way.
Also, I am a private tutor, not a therapist. I don't think it is wise/safe to be friends with your therapist (especially on social media, which is illegal, I believe). If the therapy is done and a friendship develops, I think that is ok. My thoughts on this is part of the reason I would never use my friend, who is a therapist, for therapy.
Also, I am a private tutor, not a therapist. I don't think it is wise/safe to be friends with your therapist (especially on social media, which is illegal, I believe). If the therapy is done and a friendship develops, I think that is ok. My thoughts on this is part of the reason I would never use my friend, who is a therapist, for therapy.
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ms spock
VIP Member
This is an inappropriate therapeutic relationship. This is dangerous.
Red flags and warning bells!
Many professional guidelines and professional university training around the world actually disagrees with this.
You are not in a proper, professional therapeutic trauma sensitive therapeutic relationship. So you have no basis from which to form this opinion, except from an inappropriate therapist that is already lining you up to be a "friend" to them and meet their needs in some way after your "therapy" is complete.
This is the blind leading the blind. All of this is completely dodgy and inappropriate. Your view of the Opening Poster's inappropriate relationship is "not a blurring of professional boundaries" is coming from your need to see your own "therapeutic" isn't dangerous and inappropriate. This is called confirmation bias.
What do you have to base this assessment on?. Your own situation? This is extremely concerning.
The fact that she is talking to you about this and not her supervisor is a huge red flag. She is not in appropriate, professional supervision, either individually or in a group. She is getting you, the client, to reassure her and help her work out her professional boundaries and therapeutic practices. This is most concerning.
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ms spock
VIP Member
To make a general point, so people who really don't know about boundaries and relationships, are not the ones in a position to "decide" if professional therapeutic breaches of the codes of conduct, and appropriate boundaries, training and supervision are or are not okay. The level of enabling present in these types of threads on the forum are really concerning to me. These are all very dangerous territories, and the people who pay for it at the end of the day are the vulnerable people who are being exploited. It often ends with suicide, is what I can say I have seen in the last thirty years. It also ends in people going back to reengage in a therapeutic relationship with people who have been in jail for their breeches of professional conduct, which doesn't seem very sensible to me. I have seen this occur even when those "professionals" have been involved with very serious breaches with children indeed. That people do this is not because they are bad people, but because they are vulnerable people who have suffered immense childhood deprivation. To prevent this exploitation is why the rules, ethical codes of conduct, professional guidelines and principles are in place.
You are all smart people, so get very familiar with the ethical codes of conduct and professional guidelines and principles - so you understand what is really going on in these situations.
I would also suggest learning about transference and countertransference.
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ms spock
VIP Member
Yeah well a kid who has 4 therapists that sexually abuses them, and one that doesn't - yeah that therapist would be the best that they have ever had as well. But it doesn't meant that therapist is any good - they may be damaging the child in other ways. This is the distorted cognition of "emotional reasoning". Just because you feel something does not make it true.
Justmehere
Sponsor
I have seen a variety of therapists. They all had different boundaries around in-between session contact.
My therapist that I have now is much more comfortable with in between session contact than I am. We settled on my emailing her things that come up during the week, anything I want, and she reads it whenever, and usually doesn't respond until we talk about it in session. I keep the emails to 1-2 per week. Occasionally she does respond but I never count on it, and we always talk it through face to face.
We text if I need crisis help, i.e. my life is in danger and I need her help, or urgent matters about scheduling.
My previous trauma therapist initiated and encouraged in-between session contact. She was an amazing therapist too.
Another therapist that I saw in the past also encouraged this (but she was terrible overall.) Both those therapeutic relationships ended badly and abruptly, and it was in part due to things that got too stirred up / misocnmunicated on text. It happened over 18 months into the relationship with the good therapist, and it was sudden and confusing and horrible. The texting was such a great tool, until it destroyed the relationship really fast one day.
That is why with my therapist now, we always talk through emails I write face to face where any misunderstandings can be worked out. I'm super scared of that happening again.
That's just what works for me. It gives the benefit of being able to have some connection to help me open up and yet also avoids problems I have struggled with in the past.
I had another therapist in the past that didn't have any in between session contact, but I could bring things in for her to read.
I know other therapists who exclude all in-between session contact, except in case of emergency. And there are some who do not do even emergency in between session contact.
There really is a spectrum. Every therapist has different boundaries that they keep, and in the US, there isn't completely cut and dry standards regarding the amount of in between session contact is a good idea or not. It's very contextual, and depends a lot on the particular therapist client relationship and the context and content of the communication --- and especially what therapeutic goals are being served by such contact.
In your situation three things raise a red flag for me:
1.) She feels it blurs the lines.
This is probably the biggest red flag. Whether it would blur the lines for other therapists and client sort of doesn't matter. For some it would, some it wouldn't. What's really important is that she feels it blurs the lines in this relationship. That's a good sign something Is a little off.
Therapeutic boundaries are not there just to make things hard, but because it keeps everyone safe and actually does add to the effectiveness of therapy over the long haul. If there is in between session contact, it should always be done in a manner where the boundaries or lines of the therapist/client relationship are intact. This is actually part of why some therapists do allow contact, because for them they can maintain the lines, and in some cases it even helps reach therapeutic goals and keep therapeutic boundaries. Other therapists, for a wide variety of reasons, don't do in between session contact because the lines do get blurred for them.
The best therapists know their limits and keep to them. They don't always know them in advance, but they figure it out as things go and stay within their limits as therapists and keep those therapist/client boundaries clear.
2.) She feels it blurs the lines and yet continues anyhow.
I do believe she is doing well at helping you trust and wants to do right by you. She's also human and this may just have gotten a little off track and it probably seems harmless. But the fact that she feels it blurs the lines but she continues suggests she is perhaps dealing with positive counter transference and possibly struggling to keep the lines clear for herself.
I think it's worthwhile to talk to her about why you both continue even when it seems like lines are blurred, and if that should change or if things should stay the same.
3.) The relationship feels more like a friendship to you as a result of this communication.
The best trauma therapy I have had is with two different trauma therapists who I came to trust, and sometimes view as coaches, sometimes as teachers, and sometimes they have felt like real jerks. No joke. They have not actually been jerks, and I knew that they were not at the time it felt like they were, but wow, it sometimes was so hard.
Good trauma therapists will sometimes be confrontationally kind and challenge us, and sometimes call us out on our stuff. I get a lot more annoyed with my therapist now than I ever do with friends... and it's also the most effective therapy I've ever done.
It's not entirely bad when a therapist feels like a friend, and it can actually help deepen trust. Much like you have experienced. Positive transference and feelings like that are useful and good. For some people, therapists can feel like parents or other kinds of transference can occur too. Its also good to feel the freedom to be mad or even be annoyed with therapist when doing the hard work of trauma therapy. For many, this is an important part of the process.
With the good therapist who imitated contact with me between sessions, it did help me trust her much more deeply, but it also made it harder to work through some issues - and I didn't even realize this at the time - until deep into the relationship and it kind of fell apart so quickly.
It's ok for the therapy-client relationship to feel like other relationships, even to feel like a friendship, as long as the role of therapist and client is very clear and understood by the client and the therapist maintains boundaries to keep their role a professional one at all times. The feelings can change, and be whatever they are, as long as the roles stay bright and clear. This actually allows for more feelings and things to come up that will help over the long haul.
Contact between sessions, however it happens, should have a clear therapeutic reason and be a part of a treatment plan, and not blur those lines of the client - therapist relationship. With the therapists that would initiate contact with me, it went well when it still had a clear therapeutic purpose. It eventually caused the end of the therapy when it stopped being that was and became causal, like I would communicate with a friend.
With my therapist now, she occasionally emails back, and we sometimes joke and banter, but not much of it. I'm in therapy not to do small talk or banter, but to heal. We do have communication outside of sessions, but we discuss it from time to time and check on how are relationship is doing often. We adjust as needed over time.
I'd highly advise checking in during face to face sessions on how this communication in between sessions is working for you and her. It might be that you both continue on just as you are, but have a good conversation to restablish and be clear that you both know this is a professional relationship.
My therapist that I have now is much more comfortable with in between session contact than I am. We settled on my emailing her things that come up during the week, anything I want, and she reads it whenever, and usually doesn't respond until we talk about it in session. I keep the emails to 1-2 per week. Occasionally she does respond but I never count on it, and we always talk it through face to face.
We text if I need crisis help, i.e. my life is in danger and I need her help, or urgent matters about scheduling.
My previous trauma therapist initiated and encouraged in-between session contact. She was an amazing therapist too.
Another therapist that I saw in the past also encouraged this (but she was terrible overall.) Both those therapeutic relationships ended badly and abruptly, and it was in part due to things that got too stirred up / misocnmunicated on text. It happened over 18 months into the relationship with the good therapist, and it was sudden and confusing and horrible. The texting was such a great tool, until it destroyed the relationship really fast one day.
That is why with my therapist now, we always talk through emails I write face to face where any misunderstandings can be worked out. I'm super scared of that happening again.
That's just what works for me. It gives the benefit of being able to have some connection to help me open up and yet also avoids problems I have struggled with in the past.
I had another therapist in the past that didn't have any in between session contact, but I could bring things in for her to read.
I know other therapists who exclude all in-between session contact, except in case of emergency. And there are some who do not do even emergency in between session contact.
There really is a spectrum. Every therapist has different boundaries that they keep, and in the US, there isn't completely cut and dry standards regarding the amount of in between session contact is a good idea or not. It's very contextual, and depends a lot on the particular therapist client relationship and the context and content of the communication --- and especially what therapeutic goals are being served by such contact.
In your situation three things raise a red flag for me:
1.) She feels it blurs the lines.
This is probably the biggest red flag. Whether it would blur the lines for other therapists and client sort of doesn't matter. For some it would, some it wouldn't. What's really important is that she feels it blurs the lines in this relationship. That's a good sign something Is a little off.
Therapeutic boundaries are not there just to make things hard, but because it keeps everyone safe and actually does add to the effectiveness of therapy over the long haul. If there is in between session contact, it should always be done in a manner where the boundaries or lines of the therapist/client relationship are intact. This is actually part of why some therapists do allow contact, because for them they can maintain the lines, and in some cases it even helps reach therapeutic goals and keep therapeutic boundaries. Other therapists, for a wide variety of reasons, don't do in between session contact because the lines do get blurred for them.
The best therapists know their limits and keep to them. They don't always know them in advance, but they figure it out as things go and stay within their limits as therapists and keep those therapist/client boundaries clear.
2.) She feels it blurs the lines and yet continues anyhow.
I do believe she is doing well at helping you trust and wants to do right by you. She's also human and this may just have gotten a little off track and it probably seems harmless. But the fact that she feels it blurs the lines but she continues suggests she is perhaps dealing with positive counter transference and possibly struggling to keep the lines clear for herself.
I think it's worthwhile to talk to her about why you both continue even when it seems like lines are blurred, and if that should change or if things should stay the same.
3.) The relationship feels more like a friendship to you as a result of this communication.
The best trauma therapy I have had is with two different trauma therapists who I came to trust, and sometimes view as coaches, sometimes as teachers, and sometimes they have felt like real jerks. No joke. They have not actually been jerks, and I knew that they were not at the time it felt like they were, but wow, it sometimes was so hard.
Good trauma therapists will sometimes be confrontationally kind and challenge us, and sometimes call us out on our stuff. I get a lot more annoyed with my therapist now than I ever do with friends... and it's also the most effective therapy I've ever done.
It's not entirely bad when a therapist feels like a friend, and it can actually help deepen trust. Much like you have experienced. Positive transference and feelings like that are useful and good. For some people, therapists can feel like parents or other kinds of transference can occur too. Its also good to feel the freedom to be mad or even be annoyed with therapist when doing the hard work of trauma therapy. For many, this is an important part of the process.
With the good therapist who imitated contact with me between sessions, it did help me trust her much more deeply, but it also made it harder to work through some issues - and I didn't even realize this at the time - until deep into the relationship and it kind of fell apart so quickly.
It's ok for the therapy-client relationship to feel like other relationships, even to feel like a friendship, as long as the role of therapist and client is very clear and understood by the client and the therapist maintains boundaries to keep their role a professional one at all times. The feelings can change, and be whatever they are, as long as the roles stay bright and clear. This actually allows for more feelings and things to come up that will help over the long haul.
Contact between sessions, however it happens, should have a clear therapeutic reason and be a part of a treatment plan, and not blur those lines of the client - therapist relationship. With the therapists that would initiate contact with me, it went well when it still had a clear therapeutic purpose. It eventually caused the end of the therapy when it stopped being that was and became causal, like I would communicate with a friend.
With my therapist now, she occasionally emails back, and we sometimes joke and banter, but not much of it. I'm in therapy not to do small talk or banter, but to heal. We do have communication outside of sessions, but we discuss it from time to time and check on how are relationship is doing often. We adjust as needed over time.
I'd highly advise checking in during face to face sessions on how this communication in between sessions is working for you and her. It might be that you both continue on just as you are, but have a good conversation to restablish and be clear that you both know this is a professional relationship.
- Post starter
- #19
Frenzy3674
Bronze Member
This is how I feel. I have sitting in an office with her for a year doing as 1 step forward 2 back dance with therapy. One day she tested me asked how I was doing. We tested back and forth and now therapy is productive. I think that's okay. We don't talk about her much at all. She's careful. When I text her and it's something off topic she reigns it in. It works better. This is the first therapist I've made any progress with. We discuss the parameters often and she keeps it on track. Thank you for giving an unpopular view.
Texted I hate auto correct
It's not helpful. You've taken what I said and ran with it.
We discuss the texting often in our face to face sessions. That it when she made the statement that it can blur the lines. Can not has. As a "let's be aware that that can happen".
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Justmehere
Sponsor
Oh good! That's a helpful clarification and I'm glad she has this in mind, and is seeking to keep it professional.
From what else you have described in the last couple of posts, I think you are on track. :)
You describe that you have become close, almost like friends, and that you text and you talk outside the context of therapy. You state that this situation has helped you trust her more. That sounds great....but it is not. "Outside the context of therapy" is an indicator that the contact lacks therapeutic value....except that you view this as a trust builder. We have issues with trust, so our gauge is often skewed. Its a very slippery slope you are describing, which is an ethical violation in which she could be disciplined for. Something is wrong for her to risk this. I have seen this before where the clients needs fuel the therapist needs to feel important and valued, when in fact, she could be guiding you on building friendships with others. If she were a life coach, that might be acceptable, but even she acknowledges she may be crossing a line.
If in session the client is in or close to crisis, there are times that in a safety plan, the therapist may tell the client to call under a particular circumstance, but if that happens and the therapist returns the call to client, it should be brief and to the point. It should not include a list of events that have happened since last session. The focus is where the client is emotionally right now, are they safe, do they need to be seen now? Texting a client to ask if they are doing better since last visit serves no purpose...what can the therapist possibly do about it. Their goal is to help client deal with events and find resources when not in session, to find healthy ways to self soothe and stabilize emotions. That is discussed in therapy.
With a client load of 30 clients, no therapist could do this for each client. At very least, it is conveying the message that "you're special" and that is not the case. Which brings me back to what her personal needs are. All therapists are not healthy, and their job is not to boast their own ego and importance. Unfortunate as it is, therapist often do not know if they have succeeded during therapy or even following therapy. The results are often vague. Good therapist would tell you that they have had clients who seemed much better and months following the end of therapy, were suicidal or ended in other tragedy. There is not always an objective measure of success. That can entice therapists to keep their finger on the pulse, or fulfill their own need, but thats not their job, it crosses boundaries, and can be an ethical violation when things go wrong. It can be flattering that the therapist finds you someone that they could be friends with...then it also could feel like real rejection if they don't find you someone they could be friends with. See the inequity.
If in session the client is in or close to crisis, there are times that in a safety plan, the therapist may tell the client to call under a particular circumstance, but if that happens and the therapist returns the call to client, it should be brief and to the point. It should not include a list of events that have happened since last session. The focus is where the client is emotionally right now, are they safe, do they need to be seen now? Texting a client to ask if they are doing better since last visit serves no purpose...what can the therapist possibly do about it. Their goal is to help client deal with events and find resources when not in session, to find healthy ways to self soothe and stabilize emotions. That is discussed in therapy.
With a client load of 30 clients, no therapist could do this for each client. At very least, it is conveying the message that "you're special" and that is not the case. Which brings me back to what her personal needs are. All therapists are not healthy, and their job is not to boast their own ego and importance. Unfortunate as it is, therapist often do not know if they have succeeded during therapy or even following therapy. The results are often vague. Good therapist would tell you that they have had clients who seemed much better and months following the end of therapy, were suicidal or ended in other tragedy. There is not always an objective measure of success. That can entice therapists to keep their finger on the pulse, or fulfill their own need, but thats not their job, it crosses boundaries, and can be an ethical violation when things go wrong. It can be flattering that the therapist finds you someone that they could be friends with...then it also could feel like real rejection if they don't find you someone they could be friends with. See the inequity.
- Post starter
- #22
Frenzy3674
Bronze Member
Context may have been the wrong word. Confines maybe? I have been reading all these replies and I see that it's split. I don't believe that these sessions of texting are out of line. It does not at all look like what you are describing. It's teaching and supportive and it helps me make progress in my life. So I'm ok with it.
Hmmm, well that's your opinion and I disagree,
All you did was prove to me that you are viewing me and my situation- which you know nothing about - from your own narrow point of view, you are judging me and my therapist by your personal interpretation of my few sentences- which you know nothing of their full context
Whoops! I posted that before I was done...
I do respect that you may have a different point of view- but you really are not very caring in the way you share.
So exactly what bothers you? You are basing your concerns off of... what exactly ??? That my therapist telling me that I'm likable?? Shame on her!!!
A week ago I read one post where she and her therapist actually became friends and their husbands became friends too... the therapy had to discontinue of course... it sounds to me like you would want to tear that friendship apart - simply because of the way they met?
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As well, I think you need to reflect and be careful that you aren't taking your own experiences and applying them to everyone else in this thread. If you read my post clearly with an open mind you will see that I said my relationship had professional boundaries and that I realized it was a professional relationship.
This thread is obviously triggering for you, so I suggest you take a step back before responding anymore. You have made your point that you think we are all unclear and verging on some sort of dangerous ground. You have quoted every post that you disagree with and voiced that opinion over and over with concern. Point made... I don't feel like I have a blurry boundary with my therapist. I said that "I realize her kindness falls under a professional category though..." nothing unclear about that... There are tons of people I could be friends with at work, but keep them at professional length because that is what is necessary to keep the fluidity of the relationship. I hardly think by having admiration and respect for someone binds me to the theory I am walking some dangerous line here... Whether you like it or not, there is a relationship that you have with your therapist. You do learn skills on how to manage relationships. I ask mine all the time how about relationship issues with other people, perhaps how people fight and what is normal, ways I can work through issues without exhausting myself emotionally. I am grateful for her experience and thankful for the help. That doesn't mean that I think it will be forever or we will go eat lunch after a strong session. I just respect her opinion and value that she freely gives me help when I need it and yes, if I didn't have a professional relationship with her I "could" be friends with her. I wouldn't stay there and do the necessary hard work of I didn't like her...it wouldn't work if I thought she was not someone of quality character.
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