How do you define bravery as opposed to cowardice?

[Never_falter2]

Okay... I see.. and I think nobody can be expected to work on himself 100 percent of the time and we all (vet or civvy) need love and acceptance and friendliness in our lives sometimes because none of us is perfect. Doesn‘t make us cowards or failures or victims. Do you agree or disagree.

Oh... and I think that the no fireworks signs are a great idea but it will take me very long to explain and I hope to do this later... basically they are low threshold. Not everybody can talk about that kind of things.

@barefoot: Yep, I felt afraid but thought: feel the fear and do it anyway, the fun will outweigh any risk. Was a stupid idea. Ended me up in hospital with a head injury.
Nobody benefited from it, so I really think it wasn‘t brave but stupid... but if I had received a head injury trying to safe a child from danger it would make me a hero.

Well... and then there is the opposite of this. The guy who is afraid of something avoids it but hurts nobody by his actions... and I think he cannot be a coward because nobody is hurt.

 

[Virtues]

I agree. I can't state the number of times I said if you're working on yourself this doesn't apply to you. If anyone took this as a generalized statement that "ALL VETS that don't like fireworks are cowards" than I'm sorry. That isn't what I said though, so it is really frustrating that I have re-explained my post over and over again, just to have my words taken out of context anyway. I do however think this is an emotional response to what I said, not a logical one.

My problem and part in this is that I'm very blunt and honest about how I think. I don't take time to sugar coat things and it comes across as being abrasive to others. This however is a character flaw. Like you are all saying that there is nothing you can do about your symptoms, that's how I feel about my character. I am working on it in therapy, there is actually a class called "social skills", but alas I don't seem to be making much headway with it, as you can tell from my posts.

 

[Never_falter2]

Okay. One last question. A vet with ptsd who is in therapy and working on numerous triggers but not on fear of fireworks: coward or no?

At least where we are from fireworks are relatively rare while other triggers such as crowds or dirt are common and it makes much sense to do exposure to that first.

Do you think it is okay to take a break from „working on yourself“ from time to time and just accept the fact you are less then perfect (as all people are) sometimes.?

 

[Virtues]

No, absolutely not a coward.

If you are in therapy and working on yourself what I said doesn't apply to you. Only to those who see they have a problem and do nothing to work on themselves and instead expect others to carry them through their symptoms.

It is not necessary to state that one cannot work on all their triggers at the same time. If you are working on yourself I wasn't talking about you. One has to prioritize what they work on, because there isn't enough time in the day to work on everything at once.

I also believe it is Okay to take a hiatus from therapy; it is exhausting and everyone needs a break from time to time. I never said this either; as a matter of fact I am on a hiatus from therapy right now as we speak. I go back in 4 days, but I've been on break for close to a month.

I will say this one more time: If you are in therapy, or working on your issues in some fashion, like rehab, than what I said was never directed at you (please go back and re-read my initial post and every follow up post re-explaining this)

As far as the victim mentality comment: In context of what I said, it meant that: If you place a sign in your yard because it is easier than addressing the problem, because you are too afraid, feel to overwhelmed, are convincing yourself nothing will ever help, etc... than I was talking about you. If you place the sign because you feel helpless and like you don't have a voice or any control over your life than I was talking about you. This is victim mentality. Victim mentality is NOT however the same thing as being a coward.

 

[Never_falter2]

:hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug:Thank you very much for explaining. I do not agree that feeling overwhelmed makes you a victim, but I agree on the rest of the things.... and I am sorry if I have stressed you or anything. I think I got some of the things you said wrong.

 

[Virtues]

I'm not stressed. A bit frustrated from explaining myself so many times, but not stressed. No grudges here; I hope the feeling is mutual. I only aim to help people.

 

[Freida]

Do you think it is okay to take a break from „working on yourself“ from time to time and just accept the fact you are less then perfect (as all people are) sometimes.?

Completely ok to take a break and accept what you can't change. That plays in a bit to what I was saying...
Coward -- knows there is a huge problem but is afraid to get help. Instead takes it out on everyone else and expects them to bow to him.
Brave --- gets help even though it totally sucks and is terrifying, learns to accept recovery moves slowly and does it anyway, learns to accept what they are afraid of and how it may never change.

As for working with triggers? I have lots of them and can only handle working on a couple at a time so I have to prioritize. So do I spend my time working on the ones that happen every day, or do I work on the one that only happens once a year? He may get to the fireworks one eventually - but AFTER the others are safely tucked away. That has nothing to do with bravery or cowardice. That has to do with how much his brain can handle at one time during therapy

 

[Fadeaway]

Well said @Freida. If you are working on difficult things in therapy, it probably is a good thing not address a fear pf fireworks at that time because it could cause therapy to backfire by addressing more than you can handle at one time.

@Never_falter I think you were brave on your bike even if it was stupid. I don't think the outcome has anything to do with bravery.

Had you not been afraid, it would have just been foolish. What if you hadn't fallen? What would it be classified then?

I have been on theme park rides and felt very afraid before getting on but did it anyways. In my head I kept repeating to myself that bravery is doing something even though you are afraid. It didn't bennifit anyone or hurt anyone, but I did learn something about myself. Bravery or no?

 

[Freida]

I wonder -- is there a difference between "fun" brave and "not fun" brave? Riding a roller coaster -- fun brave. Digging up terrorist attacks "not fun" brave. Maybe that's were the language challenges come in? Because we don't have a word that can separate them/

 

[Tinyflame]

It's more brave when you can't predict the outcome, and there's more to lose.

@Never_falter , if you find a perfect person, that would be a first. Why would you want to be, or want someone else to be?

 

[Friday]

IMO

Brave = Being afraid and doing the right thing, anyway.
Coward = Being afraid and not doing the right thing.
Stupid = well... there’s a whole lot that’s just plain stupid. Brave or not. Very brave or very stupid is often indistinguishable.

@Freida ... I tell my son that it’s not brave to eat birthday cake ;) Unless, of course, you’re afraid of birthday cake. I’m an adrenaline junkie. A lot of the stuff I do might look brave, but it’s not. I’m having fun :sneaky: That doesn’t mean, especially when I’m working a job I looooove, that there aren’t moments of bravery. But, for me, that’s all they are. Moments. When I’m too exhausted, hurt, scared, or sad to go on... suck it up... and go on anyway. Regardless of the consequences of my actions, or the personal cost. It’s that moment... not when I want to go on, but when I don’t. Including the times that I have to force myself to stop. When every instinct says ‘go back in’, or push harder, or just one more... and I make the decision to stay my hand or my feet or my voice, and protect my own. It’s not brave to get people killed because I want “just one more”. When there are lives on both sides of the line and I’m making the choice to either take myself out of the equation... or keep others out of it. But then, I’ve been suicidal before. That shit “looks” brave, too. If I don’t care if I die, saving someone else, that’s one thing. But if my actions drag others into their deaths? f*ck that noise. I hate stopping myself, and stopping others. Those are the decisions that haunt, because no matter how much you know it was the right thing to do, you never know the other outcome. But sometimes real courage isn’t running in. It’s holding on, and holding back, and letting it burn. No matter how much you wish you were, too.

The right thing? f*cking sucks, sometimes.

 

[anthony]

The simple truth to all of this -- is personal opinion. They are neither right nor wrong.

What one finds brave, another may find stupid or cowardice. Vice versa, intermingled. That simple. You can't argue it generally, and even specifics will vary from person to person.

I am closing this, as I think it has run its course and some just want to use it to argue.