How Do You Think?

[scout86]

It's just...having thoughts from other people's perspectives, as if those people were involved in this internal dialog with me. (My T says this is a form of dissociation.)

And MY T says that one of his goals is for "his voice" being automatically in my head when it's useful and he's not around! (And, I can particularly hear him saying "You might want to come up with a better way of thinking of that. LOL) There are a lot of different ways of looking at this, I guess.

How about memories? Do you remember things as pictures? Video or still? Are you "in" the scene, like an actor in a play, or are you watching it from outside?

What about sound? Can you listen to music? I can listen to music in my head, vocal or instrumental, and in the voices of the people I've heard perform the song. As an experiment, I've playing around with trying to "hear" Bruce Springsteen sing Willie Nelson. (Something my T suggested.)

 

[DogwoodTree]

And MY T says that one of his goals is for "his voice" being automatically in my head when it's useful and he's not around! (And, I can particularly hear him saying "You might want to come up with a better way of thinking of that. LOL)

That's a great line...gotta remember that one.

I don't think it's so much that I have conversations with people in my head, as that I do it all the time, sometimes with many people at once. A lot of people have told me they do the same thing, but only on occasion, like when practicing for a difficult conversation, and I've never heard of anyone who converses with more than one person at a time (though they might just have not told me because they don't want to sound crazy, lol).

How about memories? Do you remember things as pictures? Video or still? Are you "in" the scene, like an actor in a play, or are you watching it from outside?

Memories (normal ones, anyway) are primarily in pictures and short video clips. But there's also a kinesthetic element. Like...I'm aware of the direction I was facing, and the layout of the space around me, and the location of other people in that space, and if it's inside then I'm aware of the entrance(s) and exit(s) for the space. I might also remember tone of voice, how threatened or not I felt, and any other major sensory experiences like smell or certain sounds.

For most of my life, I've kinda just watched it go by from outside of myself. So when I remember events, that's still the way I see it, either watching from the side and slightly behind me, or like watching through a window from my actual position.

How about you?

What about sound? Can you listen to music?

I can hear short clips of sounds in my memory...a tone of voice, a quick phrase, a burst of noise.

(This part might sound strange...) When I'm listening to someone live, I see the words converted into a ticker that runs across my visual field, so I'm actually "reading" what people say instead of processing it as sound, and sometimes I even see the sentences diagrammed like we used to do back in school, lol. But I do remember tone of voice, voice inflections...I can hear a person's mood in their voice, and other details, too. All of that can be part of the memory. So when I remember what someone has said, I might hear their tone of voice, but I remember their words by reading the words that I saw (and I have color-grapheme synesthesia, so those words are full of colored letters, which helps me remember the words better). So for the actual words spoken, even though I heard them, they're stored as visual memories, not primarily as auditory memories.

 

[sun seeker]

Oops... so sorry @Lizio, it was @void who posted the thread on the Steinberg Depersonalization Test. My mistake.

 

[Chava]

Interesting questions. I think I think in some combination of super jumpy commentary, colors, and gestures.

 

[joeylittle]

I think in narrative almost exclusively. Sometimes I think in flash cards of synonyms. And sometimes I'll have a piece of music playing in the foreground while fully formed thoughts float in the background.

 

[sun seeker]

What an interesting variety. My brain is not with it enough to go over each individually right now, but I will attempt to do so tomorrow.

 

[scout86]

But there's also a kinesthetic element.

For me too. Although I don't "see" it in terms of pictures. I just "know" what the lay out of the room was like. This seems to be one of my best forms of memory. Awhile back, I described the lay out of my grandpa's house to one of my aunts and had it totally right, even though I haven't been there in a LONG time and was one there a very few times at that. It works with directions too. Once I've been some place, I can't "see" how to get there but at each step along the way I recognize things and know which way to go next.

@DogwoodTree , what you're describing as remembering in the form of pictures and video clips, where the present version of "you" is outside the version in the clip is the way my T says most people remember normal memories. I remember pretty much everything like I'm reliving it and the idea of being able to watch myself kind of freaks me out. The reason we've talked about this is that he'd like me to be able to visualize things in a way that allows me to see it from both "inside" and "outside" the picture. He's also like be to be able to "remember" what it feels like to be younger and older than I am. So far, I can't do it.

When I'm listening to someone live, I see the words converted into a ticker that runs across my visual field, so I'm actually "reading" what people say instead of processing it as sound,

This is kind of cool! It's hard for me to imagine being able to do it, because I can't seem to do any kind of pictures (yet).:wideeyed:

 

[DogwoodTree]

Although I don't "see" it in terms of pictures. I just "know" what the lay out of the room was like. This seems to be one of my best forms of memory.

Once I've been some place, I can't "see" how to get there but at each step along the way I recognize things and know which way to go next.

This is interesting. Do you know your MBTI personality type? It sounds to me like an 'S' trait (as opposed to an 'N' trait), but I could be wrong (still learning the MBTI stuff).

Are you frequently aware of which compass direction you're facing? Like...I'm usually aware of which direction is North. I hardly ever get lost, even when driving/walking in new places (where visual memory might not be so helpful).

Do you study the layouts of places you're in? When I visit someone's house, I automatically start putting together in my mind how the different rooms are laid out, and how they're connected to each other...not just through doorways, but behind walls and above ceilings and so on. For me, it's both a visual and a kinesthetic experience. I feel the spaces around me (what room is above me, what room is on the other side of a wall even if there's no door directly to it, which walls are exterior walls, etc), and I also visualize the spaces I can't see, even spaces I've never seen (like the bays inside walls and the wiring and plumbing there, or the layers of framing and insulation and everything).

what you're describing as remembering in the form of pictures and video clips, where the present version of "you" is outside the version in the clip is the way my T says most people remember normal memories. I remember pretty much everything like I'm reliving it and the idea of being able to watch myself kind of freaks me out.

Now I have a new "interview" question for people who let me pick their brains, lol. This is interesting.

So...for "most" people...do they see memories as if they're happening on a TV screen in front of them? Is there that much distance between them and the memories?

For you...do you experience things in live time from that same "inside of you" perspective, or do you experience any sort of displacement during the live experience? If you do experience displacement, is that perspective retained in the memory?

For me...during the live experience, sometimes I see the event through my own eyes, but from a distance, as if I'm looking through a window from inside. Sometimes I'm more present than that, but at those times, there is a ton of information to process, so it's almost like my "self" has to disappear in order to process all of that information. And sometimes, I experience more displacement in the live experience. So at those times, it's like I'm positioned just behind myself, off to my right side, and a little bit above myself. So in those live experiences, as the events are happening, I see myself from outside my body and observe what I'm doing and how I'm acting and how other people are interacting with me. (I understand this to be dissociation, but I could be wrong.)

So then...when I look back at my memories, I see them again from whatever perspective I experienced them. If it's a memory where I was "inside" myself but looking through a distant window, that's how the memory resurfaces. If I was watching myself from behind me, that's what I see again. Like...I can remember one event in particular last spring where I knew I was severely dissociated during the experience--I didn't feel like I was there at all, but that it was my mom standing in my place, and I was clearly standing/floating outside my body-that-looked-like-her. When I think back to that event, I still see it from that displaced perspective.

At the same time, I think that what you described as seeing the memory like on a movie screen...I think I can see some memories from that perspective as well. But that's a more vague, secondary experience of memories. I might see it that way if I'm reporting to someone else the things I did...very surface-level thought. If I dig into the memory at all, though, I'm back into the perspective from which I experienced it.

Have you been able to write a narrative about your memories? It doesn't have to be a difficult memory, just...what did you do yesterday? Like maybe...make a bullet point list, or write it like a story. Or if you can draw a little...draw a stick-figure comic strip of what you did yesterday. Maybe that would help give you a more objective perspective of your memories?

He's also like be to be able to "remember" what it feels like to be younger and older than I am. So far, I can't do it.

This has been one of my thought-hobbies for a long time. It helped keep me alive through my senior year in high school because I could imagine myself as an adult having children and being grateful to my younger self for sticking around to make that possible. I even imagine my kids as younger and older. It made those late-night feedings a little easier if I could visualize the adult version of my child standing there watching us...somehow being aware of how I interacted with their infant self (and wanting them to feel safe and loved in that experience). I've always loved time-travel sci-fi shows and movies, and how those stories challenge the whole concept of a timeline. (Live, Die, Repeat is a great movie! And Star Trek (especially TNG and Voyager) is a great TV series for time-travel episodes.)

I guess you've tried things like writing a letter to your younger or older selves?

I can't seem to do any kind of pictures (yet).

So do you think in pictures at all then? I've read that 20-25% of the population has essentially no visual thought.

My friend described an example to me. She said if she looks at a table with a bunch of stuff on it, she can't picture the table clean. Because there is no image in her head of it being any different, the mess on the table doesn't bother her that much (but it does bother her husband). So to clean it, she has to pick up an item, and talk to herself, "This is a cup. Cups belong in the kitchen." Then she puts the cup away, and picks up another item, "This is a book. Books belong on the bookshelf," and she puts it away. Then she looks at the lamp, "This is a lamp. This lamp belongs on the table." So then she knows to leave the lamp where it is.

However, a more visual person like me might look at the table, then create or recall an image of the table being clean instead. Then I keep adjusting the situation in front of me (picking things up and moving them off the table) until the live image matches the image in my head.

 

[scout86]

Do you know your MBTI personality type?

I know that I've taken the online test (because of some other thread on here, I think), but I don't remember the results. I'll have to do it again and see what I get.

Are you frequently aware of which compass direction you're facing?

I'm usually aware of it, but don't notice that I'm aware of it unless I stop and ask myself to put a name to it. Does that make any sense? I usually have a clear notice of "where I am" in relation to "where I'm going", even if I make a wrong turn. It's not fool proof. I can get lost in cities because everything looks the same.

Do you study the layouts of places you're in?

Not consciously. But an I remember "an awareness" of the layout and can go back, in my head, and remember it from different perspectives or figure out how components might relate to each other.

I feel the spaces around me

I think I do this as well, although when I start to analyze what I'm doing it kind of evaporates. It's like when I put words to it it's gone. (Which has been a challenge in therapy!)

do you experience things in live time from that same "inside of you" perspective, or do you experience any sort of displacement during the live experience?

From my own perspective, always (so far). The whole idea of and displacement is deeply and truly creepy to me.

it's like I'm positioned just behind myself, off to my right side, and a little bit above myself.

My T has been wanting me to learn to be able to do this. No luck so far. He says he thinks I "couldn't dissociate if I wanted to" and that that might be because I'm too hypervigilent to dissociate.

I see them again from whatever perspective I experienced them. If it's a memory where I was "inside" myself but looking through a distant window, that's how the memory resurfaces.

I think I understand what you mean. (And I wish I could "do pictures"!) The way I experience a memory is kind of like listening to a really well told story, where you get to feeling like you're IN the story. It's basically a narrative, the feel of it is "first person, present tense", although I KNOW it's a memory so the grammar might switch between past and present tense. The feelings that go with it are RIGHT NOW, good, bad, or otherwise.

when I look back at my memories, I see them again from whatever perspective I experienced them.

I never even THOUGHT about how this would work for someone who was remembering an event when they were dissociated! It kind of makes sense and it pretty interesting. Now I'm wondering if all people who dissociate experience it the same way?

Have you been able to write a narrative about your memories?

That I can do. Now that I've had a reason to think about it, I've noticed that a lot of stuff I seem to have trouble remembering because once it's over, it's kind of gone. It seems like a lot of stuff (like what I did yesterday) doesn't get stored in a very high priority place. I can find it, if I rummage around in the warehouse a little. I usually need clues, like "what day of the week was it?" because there's some stuff I do regularly on some days. I'm fairly likely to remember a place and then can hang details off that.

I've always loved time-travel sci-fi shows and movies,

Me too!

I guess you've tried things like writing a letter to your younger or older selves?

Yes. It's hard. First because it seems fake and pointless. Then there's the whole "creepy" factor.

So do you think in pictures at all then?

Not exactly. Although I dream in pictures. My T says that means my brain is capable of "doing" pictures. He said that he didn't used to be able to "see pictures" either and didn't dream in pictures. He thought people were making it up when they said they did. He can do it now. Extremely well in fact. (He has a story about having his wisdom teeth pulled without anesthesia, on a bet, by "watching it being done from a point up near the ceiling.") I'm supposed to be practicing "visualizing"> One day, while I was doing that, I thought "Why can't I see a picture?" and suddenly I did. It was a painting of some "banker looking guy", in a suit, hanging on the wall. At the time, it was extremely detailed. I could have told you how many buttons were in the picture etc. Then it disappeared. I've had a few other weird things like that happen. Maybe that's progress. When I close my eyes and try to do this, I see colors and moving shapes. I can play with the colors, change the shapes, change the direction of motion, but not see any actual "pictures". My T suggested starting with stuff I know well, like a favorite horse. Nothing doing! What little I've managed to "see" is always something I'm NOT familiar with.

Your table example has me thinking! Without being able to "see" an actual image of what the table would look like empty, I "know" what it's like empty. I also "know" where stuff goes. That might be more a kinetic kind of "sense" of the possibilities? I'm not sure!

Interesting stuff!

 

[DogwoodTree]

From my own perspective, always (so far). The whole idea of and displacement is deeply and truly creepy to me.

I wonder what makes it so creepy for you? Like...I can understand someone saying, "That doesn't make sense to me" if they've never experienced anything like it. But for it to be creepy? Curious...

What about when seeing photos or videos of yourself later? Does that feel creepy? Do you recognize yourself in the photo/video?

I wonder if you could set up a camera to film yourself doing an ordinary task, like cleaning a room or doing dishes. Then try to imagine what's on the video before watching it. Then watch it to see how close you got.

My T has been wanting me to learn to be able to do this. No luck so far. He says he thinks I "couldn't dissociate if I wanted to" and that that might be because I'm too hypervigilent to dissociate.

This fascinates me that your T is trying to teach you to do exactly what my T has been trying to help me stop doing.

Now I'm wondering if all people who dissociate experience it the same way?

Good question! Anyone else want to chime in?

I can play with the colors, change the shapes, change the direction of motion, but not see any actual "pictures".

It's impressive that you can manipulate what you do see. Not everyone can do that. Do you see those changes in video format, like an animation? Or do you see progressive still-shots? From my informal interviews of people, a lot of people just see little snapshots along the way rather than seeing a more fluid, animated video kind of movement.

 

[oasis2003]

Just replying to the original question to begin with. I think with narrative mainly on a day to day basis. my memories though are definitely visual, kinaesthetic, and auditory and gustatory. I relive memories good or bad. I don't watch a video, I feel see and relive memories. a smell can remind me, or a feeling, a sound or definitely visually. I totally relive. I suppose I also think visually as well as in words. my mind has become quieter from all the internal criticism and self loathing since I started to meditate and live mind fully. I try and slow thoughts down and regulate them a bit more try and stop them being repetitive and obsessional.
What is this MBTI personality type by the way @DogwoodTree ?

It is really an interesting thread goodness knows what happens in dissociation all I know is when looking at brain pictures not much fires in all areas of the brain.
My T Keeps on trying to get me to manipulate memories by adding humour to them it has worked to some degree but I am still working at it.
I have written down memories which was v diff. and asked by T to read back to her which I could not do without totally hyper ventilating and dissociating. Some type of exposure therapy which at the time I was not ready for.
As to thinking and reliving memories maybe people with PTSD remember visually, or are more sensitive to accessing all the senses in thinking and with memories. Maybe people without Ptsd totally miss out on most thinking and feeling, :):D:laugh:

 

[oasis2003]

@DogwoodTree I also communicate intuitively I think with me this is because early communication for me was and had to be intuitive. Oh my mother is like this so I must behave in this way (invisible) to protect myself. Her look meant behave in a certain way, as soon as I knew how to respond the safer it was for me. There is also this thing with the mirror neurones and early development ?!