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How Do You Typically Feel When You Leave A Session?

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Just thinking here and it makes sense to me that when you are struggling with theory of mind it is going to be really hard to break down the projection and transference we all experience as a result of interpersonal trauma. The feelings you describe are likely the feelings and thoughts you have about yourself as a result of past ill treatment. We all suffer from these. Since its going to be hard for you to imagine someone else could feel differently (theory of mind) then it makes sense you struggle to trust in that connection and your t's positive regard. Even though aspects of this may be hard for you to change it would makes sense to me that you will start feeling better as you feel better about yourself internally. That then should start to make you feel better about and towards your t and others. Feel free to discard and to point our errors in my thinking.

Maybe a first step would be to work on radical acceptance of those feelings and just start working on them in relation to the past. Im sure you are doing that already. Its likely to just take some time but something should eventually shift.
 
What does connection mean to YOU?

I don't know any more. I think I had this cartoony image in my mind, but it's not real. I want to feel comforted from being with people rather than feeling overwhelmed. I want to feel like I'm known and accepted for exactly who I am. I want to like feeling wanted, instead of feeling repulsed by anyone noticing me. I want to enjoy the person I'm with, instead of having to process so much data that has nothing to do with the relationship.

can you imagine yourself feeling connected to him?

I guess I have an emotion-picture in my mind, but I can't really put it into words. It's not clear at all. So I think I don't really know what it is I'm working towards.

What does it feel like to you (or anyone else) to enjoy being with a person? What is it that makes the interaction pleasant and comforting?
 
My T's been a therapist for 40 years, and struggled with his own issues too, so he really does understand he lack of connection. Last session we were doing energy healing, and he found a thread that disappeared into total isolation...apparently that's how he knew, because he FELT the total isolation connected to whatever he was feeling energy-wise. My head says he knows what I'm talking about, but way down deep, I'm not always so sure.

We always find things to talk about that we have in common, like Martial arts, anime, dogs, spirituality, and its all spread throughout my therapeutic sessions. he really TRIES to make a connection, and he doesn't get offended when I just can't connect, or make a stupid ASD social mistake. He takes great pains to include me in Aikido classes and group sessions, even when I balk at talking. I'm slowly starting to think that maybe, just MAYBE, he really does like me, then that thing jumps back up in my head and says "Not Possible!". Its a slow process, but we're making some progress.

I must say, the physical aspect has been the most beneficial. I need touch to feel safe, and I never get it. Depending on the person, of course, and I noticed that even though I'm very comfortable with touch in the office, at the dojo I still don't like getting close to anyone, even him! Which is why Aikido is part of my therapy I guess....

Hope you find some answers, but know I understand what you're going through. It would totally suck if I didn't have the exact therapist I needed, with a decidedly non-traditional approach. I needed someone who could step outside the box, and I found him. Hope you find someone like that for you.
 
Since its going to be hard for you to imagine someone else could feel differently (theory of mind) then it makes sense you struggle to trust in that connection and your t's positive regard.

Yes, this makes sense...

Even though aspects of this may be hard for you to change it would makes sense to me that you will start feeling better as you feel better about yourself internally. That then should start to make you feel better about and towards your t and others.

...then how do you change your thoughts toward yourself when most of what you've ever experienced from others is negative or apathetic?

just start working on them in relation to the past

I've been working on this stuff for so long. :(

And so much of the stuff that's supposed to help has been polluted by emotional and spiritual abuse.

T said the other day, "It's like safety itself is a trigger."

Niceness, affection, generosity...all of these have been used as covers for covert manipulation and abuse.

I'm struggling to find a solid foundation to build on.
 
he really TRIES to make a connection, and he doesn't get offended when I just can't connect,

Oh, my T has brought in a song each of the past couple of weeks that he thought I might like the lyrics. On one hand, I'm touched that he's making this effort. But there are two other reactions: 1) I'm sure these are just songs that he likes and he's playing them for several clients, so it's not like he thought about them especially for me, and 2) I hate that I can't have the appropriate, deeply emotional response to show my appreciation, especially since the songs didn't particularly resonate with me (they're good songs, but music just hasn't been very helpful since I gave up guitar early this year). T doesn't show offense easily, but I'm so trained to be overly appreciative about things, and it doesn't feel authentic, so I don't do that in therapy, but then I feel like I'm not being appropriately grateful, and I end up flustered and feeling like a failure.
 
I know EXACTLY what you're saying here!

If you want to make the effort to connect with T, let him know the truth. Any connection that happens has to be real and organic, no acting. The only way for that to happen is to be hones.I see that you've been taking those steps and that's good! Did you tell your T that you appreciated the gesture for what it was? That little bit of encouragement could go a long way towards progress for both of you!
 
:wtf::singing:
I don't know any more. I think I had this cartoony image in my mind, but it's not real. I want to f...

Well, I think maybe it's hard for anyone to put into words. I feel and want different levels of connection with different people, and it depends heavily on my mood and context. My wife often feels very protective of me, which I can feel as smothering and overwhelming. However, I don't doubt that she loves me and her expressions of protectiveness, of wanting to be close, are meaningful. But that is difficult for me on a physical level. When I am feeling triggered or in pain, or conversely, feeling detached, all I can stand is to be side by side, with our shoulders touching, maybe my head on her shoulder, and *maybe* her arm around my shoulders. She wants to put both arms around me and wants me to lean into her but that does not evoke comfort or connection to me when I am feeling overwhelmed.

I don't think I'm articulating this particularly well, except to say that we have different ideas of what *demonstrating* love, affection and connection looks like. I know it hurts her feelings when I get "standoffish," but after 23 years and going through her own major depression, she gets it and no longer takes it so personally.

In trying to describe what connection feels like ... At its best it feels like being the least guarded I've ever felt with another person. My wife and I are very compatible, have lots of shared values, interests and aesthetics, although we each have our individual passions (hers: sports & music; mine: art, reading, nature.) I only feel 100% safe and relaxed when I am 100% alone -- but that's my PTSD and my overdeveloped caretaking urges at work! And for me, as an introvert, being around people, even people I feel deeply connected to, IS work, it takes effort and it zaps my energy. At the end of the day I just can't people anymore.

With friends, with my T, one thing that feels like "connection" to me is if they laugh at my snarky, quirky, and mildly sarcastic sense of humor. That makes me feel like they "get" me, and we are on the same page about what to take seriously and what we can poke fun of. With my T, I feel like she gets me and she SEES me. She and my wife are the only people who've ever noticed when I start to dissociate. I feel seen and connected to my T when she says gently to me, "Come back, come back."

Gosh, I'm feeling really inarticulate. I asked you a damn hard question, didn't I? Thanks for turning it around and making me try to answer it! :wtf:
 
Yeah, as an Aspie, I don't understand what connection feels like. I watch my bro and his girlfriend, and I realize I may never be able to emulate whatever it is they have. Sometimes, I even struggle to feel any connection to my DOGS!! With people, I just accept that if I'm not scared of them, or feel the need to hide my true self, FOR ME, that's connection as best as I can do it right now.
 
My T says nice things about me, and gives me feedback on how he experiences me (mostly positive). But I don't believe him. I try to...it just doesn't stick. It feels like he's making it up. And when I asked him about that, he explained that his personality type is naturally encouraging and it's easy for him to like people, so it would actually be difficult for him to not feel these things toward me. But I still don't believe him.

People saying nice things about me doesn't build a connection, a relationship, or belief/trust between the two of us.

People being honest with me, does.

That doesn't mean they have to be a dick about it. But I'll form a connection a helluva lot faster with an honest asshole, than someone who pussyfoots around the truth, or how they see things.

...

There's an in between ground. When someone is telling me something that sets my bullshit meter off, and that I flat out do not believe... It doesn't mean they're lying. It doesn't even necessarily mean they're wrong. (Although that can be the case, too). My best friend, for example, thinks I'm gorgeous. :shifty: In no way, shape, or form true. I do not believe her. But she's also not lying. She's just able to find beauty in ugly things. I can accept that. In fact, I can even respect it, as a strength/gift of her character. She thinks I'm beautiful :wtf: That's her right. Her opinion. And her truth. & I disagree with her. And that's my right. My opinion. My truth. 2 equal and opposite truths can exist in the same space. So she can think I'm beautiful, and I can think she's nuts! :D

It took me awhile to accept that other people have the right to their opinions... When they relate to me. They don't have to be right, in order for me to believe them. I don't have to agree with them, to believe them.

So that might be something to try. Instead of "I believe you if I agree with you," instead try believing them, even if you think they're wrong or flat out crazy to think that.

Either way (disagree & don't care, or disagree & want to be) it adds shades of grey to a black and white concept. When it's a thing you want to believe about yourself, it also works as a transition / meeting them halfway. Okay. They believe ABC about me. I would like to, but don't. What would I need to do/change/be/work-on to also believe that about myself? To make that as true for me, as it is for them?
 
Any connection that happens has to be real and organic, no acting.

Not sure I even know how to do this, honestly. It's so terribly embarrassing when I allow those autistic traits to surface. I've worked most of my life to learn how to cover them up, and invested a great deal of emotional energy into that process.

How does this work with authenticity vs. growth? Connection is generated by authenticity, right? And yet, we're all supposed to be growing and progressing in our processes. We recognize areas that need improvement, and we make changes to improve them. So if this is what I've been doing all my life in regards to autistic traits, why would stopping that now be a good idea?

For example, I don't like the way I stutter when I talk with people, so I think through what I have to say first and create an internal mindset that allows me to act more extroverted and come across more smoothly...I've achieved "change" and "progress" and improved my social skillset, but it doesn't feel authentic to me...it's not who I really am...and when people think that's who I am and like me because of it, I don't feel like they even know me. But to go back to allowing my stutter to come through scares people off. They see me as someone who is a little "off" and not easy to talk with.

Emotional expression is another example. I don't typically experience the appropriate emotions during a conversation with someone. I've learned which emotions are expected, and I've learned to emulate those reactions in socially appropriate ways (to a degree). That keeps me off people's "weirdo" radar fairly well. But if I drop that facade, then I no longer interact with people in ways that feel emotionally appropriate to them. It's authentic to me to mostly be emotionally flat in a conversation, but people feel put off by that instead of being drawn to my "authenticity." And they pull away, and don't open up to me anymore.

Being "real" means being alone. Being "fake" results in passing as socially acceptable, but never being known. It's a catch-22. And it's exhausting, and frustrating, and painful.

Did you tell your T that you appreciated the gesture for what it was?

I told him one or two thoughts I had in response to the lyrics. I tried to engage with what he offered. Does that count?

Saying "thank you" usually seems trite and forced to me. I don't like it when people say that to me (it feels cliche and generic), so in being authentic, I express appreciation by cognitively engaging in what's presented rather than in saying "thank you" (which requires no real engagement at all).

I don't think I'm articulating this particularly well, except to say that we have different ideas of what *demonstrating* love, affection and connection looks like.

Yes...I've studied Gary Chapman's five love languages. Actually, I hate that book. Some of my family members have used it to beat people over the head: "I receive love through compliments and words of affirmation, so if you're not giving me enough compliments, I'm going to go fishing for those compliments until I get all that I want from you." Ugh. Run away.

But the premise is still true. We each receive love in different ways. My DH and I have identified several ways he receives love, although his primary way is by far through physical touch, especially sex. And yet, I've not been able to give that to him for over a year now, and it was sparse before that. He's really struggled with not feeling loved, even though we've talked extensively on why I can't handle that right now, and I'm terribly sorry to be depriving him, and I'm doing absolutely everything I know to try to remedy this. The fact I can't do this for him is actually a huge trigger for me...I feel like such a failure as a wife.

On the flip side, I've not been able to identify many ways that help me feel loved. From Chapman's list, acts of service probably comes the closest. I wish someone would write an "aspie love languages" book, too, because I think it would include things like solitude, quiet, consistency, honesty, and solidarity.

At its best it feels like being the least guarded I've ever felt with another person.

Again, this is where those shameful autistic traits cause such trouble. If I let them surface so I'm not so guarded, people's feelings get hurt unintentionally. Even with people who've said it's okay for me to just relax and be whatever with them, I don't think they know what they're talking about. You can't be "connected" with a recluse. DH has resorted to messaging me rather than talking face to face, even when we're in the same room, because I write so much better than I talk if I'm letting myself sink into my own thoughts. And I try to meet him in his chit-chat conversations on a regular basis, too. But we can't both be relaxed and unguarded at the same time. One or the other of us has to be working hard to bridge the gap.

I only feel 100% safe and relaxed when I am 100% alone -- but that's my PTSD and my overdeveloped caretaking urges at work! And for me, as an introvert, being around people, even people I feel deeply connected to, IS work, it takes effort and it zaps my energy. At the end of the day I just can't people anymore.

If being with people is so much work, how do you relax with them?

I asked you a damn hard question, didn't I? Thanks for turning it around and making me try to answer it!

I think, for most people, it's so much a part of their lives that they can't describe it...like if you asked a fish to describe water. So when I try to describe what it feels like I'm missing, they don't get it...it doesn't make sense. But I see signs of it all around me.

I told my T the other day about how, the day before, I had been scrolling through Facebook and I saw a photo of an acquaintance and her husband and their toddler and new baby. They were all snuggled up together and looked really cute. My instantaneous thought was, "Wow, they did a really good job of posing for that picture! They're tolerating all of that physical touch so well! I bet they pulled away the instant after the pic was snapped, though." And then it occurred to me, "No wait...they probably enjoyed hugging like that. It probably felt good to them. How is that possible?"

People around me enjoy touching each other, enjoy talking with each other, they smile at each other, they talk about stupid stuff in their lives as if the other person actually wants to hear it, they do fun things together, they hang out together, they joke and laugh, and they come away from it all having enjoyed themselves. Why? What is it they're getting out of these things that is so enjoyable?

I can fake enjoying it...I thought everyone else was faking it, too. I thought that's what you do for people to show that you care for them--you fake enjoying being with them. And then when you've done your duty to appropriately communicate that you care for someone, then you go home and recharge and try to get ready for the next time you have to perform for people. I thought everyone did this. But they don't. Why can't I enjoy being with people like they do? Even as an introvert...even if I set up the ideal introverted social interaction, like dinner one-on-one with a friend who likes a lot of the same things I do and we can talk for hours...even then, I don't feel connected. I don't enjoy the time. I can tolerate it better than a big group gathering, and there might be some interesting ideas discussed, but I don't leave feeling fulfilled and connected and loved.

And people don't get this. It doesn't register for them what I'm talking about. Even the Ts I've worked with don't get it. My current T, I think, is starting to understand. But I still don't think he really comprehends this all-encompassing loneliness. It seems I'm socially functional just enough to recognize the signs of what other people are experiencing, but socially deficient in the ability to achieve that for myself.
 
I watch my bro and his girlfriend, and I realize I may never be able to emulate whatever it is they have. Sometimes, I even struggle to feel any connection to my DOGS!!

Yes, that's what it's like. I watch other people interacting, and I realize I don't feel that way with people. It's completely foreign to me. Apparently some aspies do feel connected with their pets, but I don't. I might admire their cuteness or be amused by their antics at time, but I don't actually feel connected with them...or with nature...or with music...or with God. All of that is stuff "out there" that I can intellectually appreciate, but it still feels distant and foreign.

People being honest with me, does.

That doesn't mean they have to be a dick about it. But I'll form a connection a helluva lot faster with an honest asshole, than someone who pussyfoots around the truth, or how they see things.

Yes, I've found this to be true for myself as well, maybe not with "connection" being the result, but definitely more comfortable with and drawn towards honest people over "nice" people. (I really appreciate your posts on this forum because of that trait in you, btw.)

Problem is, I was trained all my life to be "nice", and it's really super hard to get away from that. I've tried to introduce a little honesty in my family relationships, and everyone gets offended sooo easily. So I had to back off. But then I experiment with being a little more honest with other people, and it's confusing to have such different priorities in these relationships, and not everyone handles it well. And I'm such a dweeb. It's not like I come up with crude-but-cool ways of saying these hard things. I have to be so careful about what I say or I end up making such a fool of myself. That's why I've mentally written such strict algorithms and scripts for how to interact with people...if I "wing it" too much, I can really mess things up.

It took me awhile to accept that other people have the right to their opinions... When they relate to me. They don't have to be right, in order for me to believe them. I don't have to agree with them, to believe them.

Do you feel admired by your friend, or do you just intellectually choose to accept that she experiences reality and you differently than you do?

I think my T believes he likes me. "Like" is all about opinion anyway, so I can't really argue with him. But I don't feel liked. I still want to hide in a corner and pretend I'm not there. I still hold back saying things because I'm so sure he'll discover how disgusting I am. I still picture him closing the door after I leave and sighing in relief that my appt is over. I still picture him rolling his eyes when he realizes it's almost my appt time again, or that I've bothered him with an email and he "has" to read it.

it adds shades of grey to a black and white concept.

Yes, adding shades of gray has been a very useful approach for me on a lot of topics.

What would I need to do/change/be/work-on to also believe that about myself? To make that as true for me, as it is for them?

I think I don't really understand what it means to work on myself while still being authentically me. I'm so used to hiding what's wrong with me so that I can pretend to be what's right. How does one "work on" what's wrong instead? Or...what if "what's wrong" is hardwired into the brain and the only alternatives are to hide it or let it be as is?
 
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Some of what you are describing is AS related I suspect. I think many of us with trauma will relate to a lot of it too though. Its quite probable you have both aspects of this going on at the same time. The trauma stuff can change and I would guess that could change the way you feel a fair amount.

You describe this pervading sense of loneliness and that means there must be some sort of desire for connection (of some sort). If you had to guess then what would that look like? Is it more about knowing that others are doing things differently and feeling you should be doing it too or is it more a sense of missing something yourself?

You are obviously intelligent and it will be helping you bridge that language gap between AS and other. I think it may be worthwhile just seeing it as a language thing as apposed to lack of authenticity. When we aren't speaking our own language it is hard work and one can't relax in the same way as if we are, It sounds like you never have that respite of just relaxing into your own language. In certain ways I feel that to an extent but what are describing sounds exhausting.

But when you describe your feelings and thoughts about your t liking you then I suspect a huge chunk of those on here would strongly relate - including me.

I just work on accepting that I can't feel the possible genuine expressions of others as an indication of my own internal state.
This paragraph could be written exactly by most of us.
I think my T believes he likes me. "Like" is all about opinion anyway, so I can't really argue with him. But I don't feel liked. I still want to hide in a corner and pretend I'm not there. I still hold back saying things because I'm so sure he'll discover how disgusting I am. I still picture him closing the door after I leave and sighing in relief that my appt is over. I still picture him rolling his eyes when he realizes it's almost my appt time again, or that I've bothered him with an email and he "has" to read it.

And I think that comes from past experiences. I don't think its something that just goes because ones t says we are valuable 10 or 30 times. I struggle to trust and let others in (unable to have therapy at all for many years now) but what has started changing is that I am more able to parent myself and deal with these things internally.

I wonder if you are placing to much emphasis on feeling and believing what he says rather than just accepting that it is a symptom that you can't. I'm assuming you could accept the concept and I can't see why that wouldn't start helping you in time.
 
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