Hi
@HealingMama , I am sorry this may not be useful as I can't keep up to all the thread, but I just wonder, when you say:
^^ It sounds like you are still expecting (possibly?) that he do for you at least part of what you need to do for yourself (regulate your emotions, find grounding, etc, whatever- the same things you would need to fill if you were single. (Because leaving him you would, at least until you were no longer single). And that you are expecting him to think badly of you (your thoughts and interpretations, though you say he disagrees). Which only you can change. And that you're assigning this event great weight. (Don't feel badly if you are, I heard it said most people get married with the expectation both parties will meet each other's unfilled hopes, dreams and expectations. Which is I swear why lots of guys get laid, and it's like, 'I scored!", and women often do the same with marriage. Pretty much mostly about themselves. Not that this person is my heart.)
Hmm maybe I am? But some amount of co-regulation is reasonable to expect from a partnership. I do not expect him to do everything for me but if I am so distressed that I am wishing I could go inpatient? That's something a person "should" be able to go to their partner about, no?
Yes I expect him to think badly of me because he's spoken badly to me like that for 50-80% of our interactions since August, with increasing frequency.
Not sure what you mean by assigning the event great weight. Me not feeling safe to go to him with a problem is not a special event, it's one of many occasions where I feel like I have to cope by myself. He did say it isn't fair to be upset when he did not know I was suffering. I was not holding against him the fact that I suffered and he didn't know so much as the fact that he's been so contemptuous for so long that my inner image of him is 80% that, and that is why I don't feel I can go to him. He did apologize for how his anger has impacted me on that. But there is no progress on it either.
^^ It would, but because it isn't, what way would work?
i think it might be fair to say, you are expecting the worst of him, from him, and presupposing he doesn't even like you atm, let alone love you?
Is the relief because your needs are thwarted? Because you are tired of the cycle? (Who wouldn't be, fwiw).
I don't know that it's a presupposition to say he doesn't like me. It's all over his nonverbal behavior. He says he is exhausted, and the contempt is a defense mechanism, but I don't know how to process it as anything other than "he thinks I am less than human, a POS with a distorted character that cannot ever change, even though a lot of the issue is communication patterns he's equally responsible for." Someone shunning me means they don't like me, don't want me around. Someone not responding to me might or might not be them shunning me, but if their overall pattern is to withdraw when they don't like what I say, which I experience as shunning/punishment, then I am more inclined to read an ambiguous situation as indicative of the existing pattern.
Since you said somewhere, he is a brilliant man, isn't it safe to say when he gets a system that works for him, it works for him? I would really look in to someone like Gena Pera (sp?). She has books or it is on youtube, or even someone like Melissa Orlov (though I think Pera explains it better, but perhaps because it's more directed towards even familial interaction). I only say this humbly because in my FOO virtually everyone presented as ad(h)d, and yet everyone was also markedly different in behaviours and responses. Equally, when one was diagnosed and very hyperactive, I just assumed 'that' was adhd. And the 'black sheep' (relatively speaking) of the family probably leaned highly towards innatentive. I think it would be helpful, even if you have adhd yourself and think there's nothing more to learn. There really is, because your response even inadvertently will hugely affect where every interaction goes.
The second part is perhaps reconsidering if it's possible this marriage wasn't a bait-and-switch. Was there hyperfocus that waned? Did you each/ both start taking the other for granted? Do you expect the worst? Are you givimg the benefit of the doubt? Are you thanking your partner for the small things (even if they don't thank you)? Are you looking for the things they do right? Are you cataloging and keeping score of everything you think they don't? Are you assigning your contribution as greater? Are you on their side? (And I don't mean as in 'thinking what's best for them'. For all you know, he thought what's best for you might be to manage it on your own at that moment.)
I am in Gina's support group actually. I got rejected there as well recently which is part of why I was in crisis wanting to go to the hospital. I've been rejected everywhere I go online for connection and I am so
pathetic fearful, avoidant and too exhausted to give like people deserve for a true friendship that I do not have anywhere I can go for connection in my regular life.
When I talk about bait and switch that's what I mean - the hyperfocus courtship ended, but I had no idea that's why he was the way he was before.
The less influence I have, and the worse his attitude, the harder it's been to do those things. Like we will start out with a disagreement and I will be calm, centered, regulated, but he just does not try to fight fair at all, and eventually I get fed up and may join him in the toxic space briefly before I give up trying to have communication at all. If I am giving my best effort at a healthy approach to communication, and he is treating me badly, comparing me to my mother, cussing me, interrupting me, saying something snarky on his way out of the room so I can't respond to it, etc then I do not know what else I am supposed to do.
It's probably partly what they are calling rejection sensitive dysphoria but he never owns it, he never comes back later on his own to apologize for treating me so bad. I could put up with it if he were proactively accountable and maybe he does not have the capacity to be since that requires a lot of EF skills.
I have asked him to get therapy, I communicate with the psychiatrist directly since that's what Gina's books recommend even though less well-informed people give me a side eye about that. I asked him to get a coach, and he didn't do the homework regularly enough for anything to change. He's better at his own errands and some stuff than he used to be, but will not involve me to educate me on what systems are working.
Admittedly, I absolutely do assign my contribution as greater, and have resentment about that. I do compare and think if I can suck it up and do the thing even though it's hard why can't he? (Regarding situations where it appears to be a problem of avoidance associated with the "wall of awful" vs executive functioning related stuckness/procrastination - he can't help the EF but he could work on the avoidance.) Doesn't he care that everything he won't do gets put on my shoulders??!!
When the truth is he probably does care, but he has a disability, and I forget how much more disabling it is for him. But then I think, I do not know that I Can be his caregiver either. I do not know that I can just say ok this is my life, it takes my partner 80% effort to do what I can do with 50% effort therefore even though I am actually doing 80% of the work, I should process it as 50% because it's harder for him. I mean for a long time I DID accept that, but now that he is actively making me feel like trash? No I do not want to have empathy about that. If he were able to fix this? Then yeah I could accept that he meets my emotional needs and does some domestic stuff, and I do everything else.
I think 'love' is not doing the things experts suggest but actually meaning them. If you hyperfocus on what you hate, you will crowd out what you love. But you can't love with conditions of x,y,z have to be as "I" would do it, because no one wants to marry themself. Maybe it's time to ask him what he thinks will be helpful, or what ideas he has? And what are his needs? Because they have equal weight. And start excising the punitiveness. Start with the smallest thought, and hopefully action. Start looking at people like Pera or Orlov, or Dodson or others. Because, it always gets me, how people talk about love languages too- yes it is true a person has to understand the difference. But ultimately they have to also accept this 'is' the way people show love, and feel it as love. Yes, you can ask for more. But in another way, had you married someone less avoidant, do you think the situation might in fact have been reversed? That is, they may have directly engaged your needs such as parts and said what the heck are you are saying, and something like ~just get it together and drop your parts and step up and give me what I need. (And I don't say that to be harsh, rather that if you had married someone less avoidant they may have been harsher with you. Do you appreciate his forgiveness and tolerance of what he might not understand? Just as you do not feel understood?) Because, in a sense, that could be viewed as a tenderness he gave, and you are not. And you can't use unsafety to avoid it, because unless truly warranted it is your feeling that you have to pick apart, you have to rise above your own feelings of unsafety. Which he probably did, to try to soothe you, and to keep the peace.
I can ask him again what ideas he has. Usually he says I don't know. Same for conversations about hopes, dreams, needs. He can tell me he needs peace, he needs a break from all the intensity, which I can understand and respect bc I need both of those things too. The problem is we do not see the path to achieving it the same. I don't have peace when there are massive unresolved problems. I can feel that things are only ok on the surface, very strongly, and it's very hard to just accept the pretense knowing it's based on a flimsy foundation, wanting to go in and repair the foundation even if a little demolition is necessary because then it will be stronger and less likely to fall apart.
"that could be viewed as a tenderness he gave, and you are not."
That's absolutely correct, something I have to unpack. Most of my agitation is fight mode, hyperarousal. I see that I am scrambling and not able to do enough to keep my family safe. I see me unable to relax into my femininity because I have to be in charge of everything. Although I will also say that even though he has awareness of what is going on, why I am like I am, he also holds a lot of resentment.
He said he is burned out but I seriously gave him at least a year, closer to 2 I think, of being the best partner I know how to be, incorporating as many best practices as I could into our communication, but he needs me to just never speak up and ask for anything... he says that is not true... but I cannot find where the boundary is and I ask and he doesn't know. Is it that I can only make a request every 3 days? Once a week? Because no matter how long I try to defer, as soon as I am making the request he treats me like I've pressured him daily about everything... even though I have worked not to do that, but how many times can you do what someone wants, and they do not see it, before you say ok fine, and give into their projections of you?
Now that daily pressure IS happening but it wasn't before. ... it would be different if I saw incremental change and for some things I have but not the way he speaks to me, his general attitude, it's shit and it's been shit for a long time and he's not trying to change his own thoughts about me to fix that. I told him months ago I cannot do anything to fix his contempt, he has to fix that himself bc it comes from "long simmering negative thoughts about your partner."
I see no evidence that he is trying, probably because it requires more executive functioning than he can do without help. I do not believe I can be the one to help with that. As I am sure you know growing up with emotional abuse primes a person to be very, very aware of changes in other people close to them, and to be very sensitive to nonverbal communication as a clue for what level of danger they are in. So the nonverbal behavior overshadows the words. Not to mention even without abuse, if the words and tone are not congruent then that is not a clear message. Do you love me or hate me because you say you love me but your tone is expressing hate, so...?
I do really agree with the principle there's you, me and we. The we is what's best for the relationship, and sometimes it's going to take a partner to sacrifice something in the moment. Hopefully that's mutual. Sometimes it's pride, or control, or resentment, too. But just as equally, what are definitions for one aren't necessarily the same for others. 'Often' could have a wide range, so could 'emergency', so could any fact.
But the real work, to me, is not just knowledge, not just understanding (that's better than knowledge), but then one's heart/ choice. It's a different type of work to do on yourself. To ask questions, are my words or actions loving? (No 'buts' allowed.) Am I ashamed of my partner? What do I expect of my spouse? What do I think they expect of me? Do I take their presence for granted? Is my unhappiness seeing the world through muddy glasses? What are they feeling, not about me but their dreams? What are their fears? Is what I am doing contriburing to peace or discord? Am I noticing all they do right? Am I respectful? Am I flooded? Are they? do I have to be right? Can I really belive my partner/ spouse/ family member sees and experiences the world differently than I? Do I gennuinely feel badly if I hurt them? Do I apologize? Do I spend at least as much time looking for the truth in what they say? Or do I rationalize or get defensive? Do I assume their lack of ability to manage in the way 'I' want, or express themselves in only the way I want, means they don't care? Etc. That kind of thing. Soul searching. And really, a whole lot of maturity. And add a whole lot of kindness and forgiveness, to youself as well.
Thank you. That's the work I have been trying to do. It's so hard to keep it going when the other is digging at you, being provocative and escalating (knowing the actions they take are escalating and doing them anyway but blaming me for the fact that there is now a conflict when it started as a request for change), being snide and condescending, comparing me to my mother, talking about my father's traumatic death in a glib or flippant manner.
I tried to just keep showing up, keep giving my best, that was my way of showing love, I am going to show you love even though you're being awful to me because I know that you are hurting. But he never stopped it. He got worse not better :( I was reflecting and trying to be self-aware but I think that only works when both people commit to it, and I have no indication he's done that.
(ETA, cross posted. ) Would add your perception of his lack of sentiment, might be actually indicative of your own lack of sentiment. Do you think that's possible? One way to tell, is you are feeling distantor bitter ore resentful or angry or afraid,, not just in your marriage.
(Disregard if not helpful.)
I think that he caught it from me, but i have made a conscious effort to be positive, assume good will, etc. for quite a while now, until very recently when I got fed up with how little he was changing his attitude towards me. My marriage takes up so much emotional space that I don't really feel anything for any other part of my life, sadly.
So here I am... I have done what I can to clean up the mess that I made... and he is unwilling or unable to change the thing on his end that is making it impossible for me to tolerate anything anymore. I feel that no matter what I do or how I ask, if he hears anything less than "you're the best husband in the world, you are doing everything I could possibly hope for in a partner" it is a huge problem. I can say, "could you remember to touch base with me before you commit both of us to specific plans with someone else?" and he hears me saying he's a POS. He was like that before I ever became toxic in my communication. He hears a request for change as an indictment of his character and what am I supposed to do with that?
It's not sustainable to have a relationship where neither person is giving feedback. I ask for his feedback all the time! He won't give it, except when it leaks out in a toxic way. I tell him I would rather you call me out for something when I do it then save up the grievances and hit me with all of them after so much time has passed that I cannot fix anything that I did wrong because you don't remember the details. I tell him I want to change too, whatever way I can, that would help him, and in most areas I have done that. He tells me things occasionally and I say thank you, I model nondefensive responses, and sometimes say that is an example of how I would like you to respond to me if I bring something to your attention in a respectful and calm manner.
I try to be more generous but he doesn't want it, he doesn't want to be doted on, he doesn't want me catering to him, we have like "politeness fights" over how to season the meal because I won't say anything about how he did it but not eat some of it, and I'll say I wanted you to have the freedom to make it the way you like it and be scolded for that. I feel like he is so afraid of criticism that he has made a relationship impossible.
He says I am too impatient, change doesn't happen overnight. But like in 2019 I was writing here in my journal about how different I had become and how he would not see it. Then a year later I got on meds and was even more different, and he didn't see that either. It's so hard to find motivation to continue a different behavior when the other person just projects their inner model of you onto the moment no matter what is actually happening. (I get that I did that to him also, and probably still do for these deeper issues that I have not been able to master.)
I wonder what Barkley would say about how to get EF skills to improve in a relational space. It's not like you can set out an index card that says "talk to your wife the way you want her to talk to you" and resolve it. You can't set a reminder, because his whole deal is intervening at the "point of performance" which is ... whenever a conversation happens to go sideways. No way to have a structured approach to that. Can you think of one?
I have asked him to read about how to get over contempt towards your spouse and he just says "I'm not like you." Which I get, but how do you propose to change your behavior if you won't be intentional about it? He has no answer. I feel if he regularly reminded himself "these are problems she said are making the marriage bad, maybe if I change those things and it's still bad she can't say that anymore," we might see some progress!
I'd take spite or desire to prove me wrong as his motivation as long as he would pick it up and hold it somehow.
He will go along with just about anything but is not being proactive on any of it, and I do not see how he can change contempt reactively, like, literally I think of zero ways that is possible.
Thank you for trying to help me
@Rosebud it means a lot.
), but I do remember Orlov saying she started to approach things differently when her child brought a picture home drawn at school about something like, ~'What is life like at home?', with her drawn standing on the table screaming at her H. And she said she wasn't proud of it, but she had to realize she also had to stop the nagging. And that she totally believed her H didn't love her, and he truly was like, "No, I don't feel that way at all." So no shame, just solutions.
