Hypervigilance, dissociation, or something else? autoscopic experiences

[DogwoodTree]

I didn't know where to put this, so the "General" category seemed close enough.

Autoscopy is the experience of seeing yourself. I'm not sure that's the exact right term for what I experience, so let me explain...

I recently was in a group conversation with someone who was having trouble learning how to meditate. One of the leaders suggested he try "seeing himself", as if in a mirror, to help with the meditation so he could focus on his current-moment existence. He tried it, and the next day he reported that it worked really well--he saw a mental image of himself for the first time in his life and was completely amazed at the experience.

This guy was, perhaps, in his mid- to late 50s. I was shocked he could be that old and never have created a mental image of himself before. I do this all the time. For as long as I can remember, even back to being a small child, I've always had a sense of watching myself from a position to my right and slightly above and behind my physical body. I realize this is a mental construction of what I think I look like, based on things I can actually see, and assumptions I make about what I look like from that angle, and other images that get mixed in. For example, I rarely "see" my own face in my mental constructions--it's usually combinations of aspects of other people's faces, but I do see my own body and the clothes I'm wearing, the position I'm standing/sitting in, etc. And it's pretty constant, without trying. I have a constant awareness of my appearance from that angle. At the same time, I also have an awareness of my perception from my physical body's angle. When I tried to describe this to my DH, he said, "So you experience life in stereo?" That's pretty accurate. I experience both perspectives at one time, the perspective from my physical body and the perspective from this extra-personal location just to the side and looking back at myself.

This also plays into some of the flashbacks I deal with because I "see" portions of memories or images placed in my head by my abuser's comments as part of my current-moment experience. It can "infect" my experience of reality with portions of memories or other images, and makes my mind think those things are real, right now, even though I cognitively realize they're not real, but I can't make the images go away. However, this portion of the experience is mostly limited to times of intimacy when flashbacks are causing problems, and lately this has not often been a problem because my DH and I are abstinent while I'm working on therapy stuff.

From what I've read, most sources call this experience of seeing yourself autoscopy. There are different kinds of autoscopy, including thinking you're in your body but seeing a projection of yourself in extra-personal space, or thinking you're floating outside your body and looking back at yourself (like an out-of-body experience). Most people describe these experiences as being highly disturbing, and even end up suicidal if the experiences are chronic. Experts refer to the experiences as dissociative in nature.

However, this isn't how I experience it. I think I use these mental images primarily as a form of hypervigilance. I have Asperger's, so a lot of this is in an effort to monitor my behavior, posture, facial expressions, tone of voice, body language, etc. in trying to appear as normal as possible. And it's not something I perceive as being disruptive--rather, I feel ungrounded when I've been so distracted by something else that I've lost a sense of this extra-personal perspective for a period of time. Reconnecting mentally with the autoscopic perspective is grounding for me. I feel more aware of myself and in control of how I'm behaving, etc., when I'm watching myself from this external angle. And it's not always super positive (like a narcissistic self-admiration) or super negative (although it can and does trigger shame feelings). Many times, it's simply neutral, just observing and noting what I see.

Does this sound familiar to anyone? There's very little information about it online, and nearly everything discusses autoscopy as a serious pathologic disturbance. It's sometimes categorized as a form of depersonalization. But my experience doesn't seem so dissociative to me. As I said, it feels grounding for me, in helping me to be aware of myself and how I might be coming across to other people. It's not limited to when I'm around others, though. Very often throughout the day, even when I'm alone, I have this extra-personal sense of myself, to the point I'm actually embarrassed about things I do that seem embarrassing to myself even when no one else is around (e.g., trip over something, drop something, do something else clumsy, etc.).

When I tried to describe this to my acupuncturist (who also studied as a neuroscientist), he said he had never heard of this at all. He even suggested I contact someone like Oliver Sacks to see what he thinks about it. We also discussed that it might be connected to my mirror-touch synesthesia, that my mirror neurons are especially overactive, or that there is some other cross-wiring in my brain. I wonder if it has something to do with hyper-visualization, as I tend to mentally visualize way beyond what my eyes can physically perceive. For example, when I look at a wall, I can't help but imagine what the inside of that wall looks like (the wood structure, the wiring, etc.) and what's behind that wall (the next room, the furniture in that room, etc.).

As I've learned mindfulness skills, this extra-visualization has actually increased. The more I'm aware of my surroundings rather than being stuck inside my own head and thoughts, the more my mind visualizes beyond what I can see, noticing patterns, imagining what's not visible but is likely there, and considering the ongoing timeline for a thing or place (like, what did this neighborhood look like as the houses were being built 3 decades ago? or, what clues about this car indicate where it came from and where it's going? or, how did the engineers decide to slope this ramp exactly the way it's done? or, how are the cells inside that tree interacting with each other and the environment to drain chlorophyll from the leaves and release the leaves from each tiny branch, and what storage activities are in progress to prepare the tree for the winter? and so on...). Perhaps this isn't true mindfulness, then?

At any rate, my question is mostly...does this hyper-vigilant experience of autoscopic perspective sound familiar to anyone?

I should add...I also see myself from other angles at times. There's another angle that is more in front of me, still to my right, that is more cropped to my face. There's an angle directly behind me. And then I can create an angle depending on someone else's location in order to visualize what I look like to them.

 

[Ronin]

Familiar, yes.

But not from an academic perspective at all, & I don't tend to pay attention to it unless I'm seriously overwhelmed and it becomes physically painful / something I *need* shut down, or lessened enough to pay attention to other input.

I usually pick the angles I can do something about and disregard the rest.

 

[scout86]

That actually sounds like something my T has tried to GET me to do. I can't. At least not yet. And I've found the idea of doing it to be really disturbing, for reasons I'm not sure of. But, if I remember right, you think in pictures more than words, right? I can't actually "see" pictures in my head at all. But I "hear" words. The whole "visualizing" thing has been an interesting topic. I wonder if the ability to do this depends on how one visualizes?

This might be related as well. I basically DON'T dissociate. My T says he thinks I'm too hypervigilant. And, I think part of the purpose of the exercise was supposed to be learning to do other things to tone the hypervigilance down. (I could be wrong about that. The whole thing totally freaked me out & I really don't want to go there. At least not yet.)

Interesting topic! (You're good at coming up with those!)

 

[DogwoodTree]

Familiar, yes. ...

I usually pick the angles I can do something about and disregard the rest.

So you have a mental image of yourself from some angle other than the location of your physical eyes? Do you know when this started for you? Is it something you use constructively, or is it disturbing for you?

 

[Ronin]

@DogwoodTree When a kid & depends, I mostly tend to rotate a lot of my surroundings in my head quite often so it's not disturbing unless I'm struggling with other health issues at the moment.

 

[DogwoodTree]

But, if I remember right, you think in pictures more than words, right? I can't actually "see" pictures in my head at all. But I "hear" words.

That would make sense you can't visualize yourself if you don't see mental pictures at all. Is there another way you monitor yourself?

I thought this might be a form of metacognition...thinking about thinking...but it seems to be significantly more involved than simply being aware of your thoughts or figuring out the best ways you learn things, which is how most sources I found described metacognition.

This might be related as well. I basically DON'T dissociate. My T says he thinks I'm too hypervigilant. And, I think part of the purpose of the exercise was supposed to be learning to do other things to tone the hypervigilance down.

So it sounds like your T is putting hypervigilance on the opposite end of a spectrum from dissociation, right? And he thinks that one could balance out the other?

On a side note, do you think your resistance to visualizing (if you would call it resistance...it could simply be an inability, as not everyone has the brain wiring to think in pictures) is related to your trauma history? Kind of a clinging to concrete reality for a sense of safety? We adopted a dog several months ago, and though she's super sweet and loves to cuddle, she hates being picked up. Sometimes she'll even snap at us if we try. She has some hypervigilant responses to loud noises or sudden movements, so I suspect she was mistreated before we got her. And she seems to really need to have all four of her own paws on the floor to feel safe enough. Maybe it's a similar thing for you...needing your own, direct contact with physical reality in order to feel safe?

 

[scout86]

Is there another way you monitor yourself?

Hadn't thought about it, but I don't think so. My energy tends to be aimed at monitoring my surroundings. I just "know" where I am and what I'm doing. It's actually an huge distraction, and kind of a problem, if I start wondering how what I'm doing "looks". (I also hate looking at myself in the mirror.)

So it sounds like your T is putting hypervigilance on the opposite end of a spectrum from dissociation, right? And he thinks that one could balance out the other?

I think that's right. All of my memories are experienced in what I think of as "first person, present tense". So, if I'm remembering something, I experience it about the same as if it were happening now. If I understand correctly, he thinks it would be helpful if I could "take myself out of the picture." I can see where it would add a certain objectivity. He's mentioned that the whole "being able to leave your body" thing can be pretty useful, if you can turn it on and off. (Like when you're at the dentist.)

On a side note, do you think your resistance to visualizing (if you would call it resistance...it could simply be an inability, as not everyone has the brain wiring to think in pictures) is related to your trauma history?

You know, I have a suspicion it is, but I'm not sure how. My T wasn't born being able to visualize, but he learned. We both thought that people were speaking metaphorically when they said they could "see" something that way. I didn't realize they literally meant it until he & I talked about it.

When he first had me practice, I could see colors and shapes. With some practice, I can alter the direction things are moving (they're always moving), and I can play around with the shape and color. One night, while I was doing this, and wondering why abstract shapes and not animals, a giraffe materialized out of the moving shapes. In living color and great detail. A giraffe? Then it was gone, never to return. He had suggested that I try looking at something, then closing my eyes & trying to "see" it. While doing that, I asked myself "Why can't I see a PICTURE?" and all of a sudden, I could. A literal picture. Like a painting,hanging on the wall, of some old banker looking guy in a suit and vest. At the time, I could have told you how many stripes there were on his tie. No idea who that was supposed to be. Never saw him before or again.

So, I'm thinking the wiring is there, I just seem to have no control over it. Another thing my T suggested was that I try visualizing something I knew well, like a favorite horse, or my vehicle. No luck with that at all & I'd think something I know would be easier than some random image. My perception is that "something" is keeping me from doing it on demand, but I don't know that for sure and definitely don't understand it.

 

[DogwoodTree]

All of my memories are experienced in what I think of as "first person, present tense". So, if I'm remembering something, I experience it about the same as if it were happening now.

Interesting. Have you tried writing about events in past tense, third person? Obviously you can write about memories in past tense--you did so in your post here. Were you experiencing those events in present tense as you wrote about them? How did your mind know to put them in past tense? Or is it just traumatic memories that force themselves into the present tense thought?

I'm thinking about how this is similar/different to my visual memories. Pictures are intense for me, even if they're just in my mind. Whether I'm seeing something on a TV screen, or seeing something happen in my mind, the mirror-touch synesthesia causes me to feel it in my body. If there's a kissing scene in a movie, I have to look away or I feel like I'm being kissed, which I don't like. So having visual memories of the abuse causes me to re-experience them any time those images come up. I've read about traumatic memories becoming "just" memories, but as long as there's a visual aspect to the memory, there's always an element of re-experiencing it when I see those images.

I just "know" where I am and what I'm doing.

So for you, the sense of danger comes from the outside only?

I guess, on some level, I've attributed more personal responsibility to the way things happen to me. Either I did something, or said something, or appeared a certain way, or moved a certain way, or even thought something or prayed something (or failed to) that caused a particular event to happen to me. If it's something bad, then somehow I messed up to cause that problem. That whole idea of, "We create our own reality" or "Your words have power, even if you don't say them out loud" or "Prayer works", seem to put the onus of responsibility on me to determine how I'm treated. I was taught to think positive thoughts, "name it and claim it", speak victory, that kind of thing. So then if something bad happened, I had failed somehow. So I had to monitor myself constantly. Even when I was little, I remember thinking I had to pray the right way or think the right way to keep bad things from happening. At night, I would hold my arms up in the air to make sure I stayed awake long enough to say all the prayers I thought I had to say to make things go well and keep people safe. It wasn't a "power" thing, it was fear. I thought God mostly required us to say prayers the right way in order to deign to intervene. So if I didn't say all the right prayers in the right ways, God wouldn't bother to help out. Honestly, I still think that way. I have to force myself to not say certain prayers, and then I'm terrified I've condemned someone to some kind of crisis.

Maybe this is an OCD thing? I wonder if other OCD people monitor themselves more than most people do?

 

[Tinyflame]

Wow, absolutely everything that @scout86 has described is exactly the same for me as well, but I've never tried to practice anything else. I thought most everyone is the same. (But come to think of it, I can't visualize a 'safe place', but people do that.)

The only exception is flashbacks, they are through my eyes but I feel also like an observer. I do not remember if I 'see' myself.

I was just thinking today the absolute only thing/ person I can visualize is one angle of my sister's face.

Not even her/ ~my dog. :( I cannot visualize or call up an image of how anyone looks.

 

[scout86]

Have you tried writing about events in past tense, third person?

Interesting thought! No, I haven't actually done that, but I've got a journal (that I've been neglecting) and I'm going to try it. This idea never occurred to me

Were you experiencing those events in present tense as you wrote about them?

Basically, yes. I know I'm remembering, not experiencing, but what I remember is (as far as I can tell) from exactly the same view point as the original experience.

How did your mind know to put them in past tense? Or is it just traumatic memories that force themselves into the present tense thought?

When I'm "thinking", you know, using the higher cognitive centers of the brain, I'm aware of the fact that things were in the past and are not actually happening now. But, my T says a lot of people remember things like they're looking at a picture of what happened, with themselves in the picture, or a movie, with themselves in it. I never do that. I remember things like I'm IN the picture. Even though I know it's the past. (Which, now that I'm trying to explain it, seems kind of confusing. It's not confusing in my brain.)

I have that synethesia experience too. One more thing about visualizing. Although I can't "see" pictures, I recognize things I've seen really well. For example, I can't spell to save my life, but I can pick the correctly spelled word out of a list of similar words very accurately. So, there are times when I get a physical reaction to something on TV, similar to what you do. My T has suggested trying to "visualize" with all the senses I can access....... turns out I can kind of recreate physical feelings, but it's pretty creepy and I'd rather not.

So for you, the sense of danger comes from the outside only?

I'm not 100% sure I'm understanding this correctly, but yeah, basically danger comes from an external source.

I understand what you mean about feeling like you're somehow responsible..... Maybe this is a difference that arose because of upbringing? I had (and often have) a vague sense that I deserve what bad stuff happens or has happened. I just never felt like I had any control over it. That probably started with my mom, where she was never going to let me get anything "right". I learned early on that was impossible, so I kind of quit trying.

I kind of came late to a faith in God, but I've known people who are big on the name it & claim it idea. I can see how that would be a difficult thing to grow up with! It's very much going to affect your perceptions. I don't know if that's an OCD thing or not. I kind of go back & forth on my thinking about what God's actually like. I like the New Testament "God is love" version a LOT better. But, I can get off on worrying that I have to get it "right" or else, pretty easy. (I imagine God, rolling his eyes thinking, "For heaven's sake cut that out!" because he's probably not actually mean.)

The only exception is flashbacks, they are through my eyes but I feel also like an observer.

I don't have what I think of as actual flashbacks very often. (I'm leaving "emotional flashbacks out of this, because they're too confusing.) I can think of twice. The first time, I was seeing something that wasn't there, and I KNEW it wasn't, and was also seeing what really was there. It was bizarre! And pretty distracting. Someone was trying to talk to me (probably because I was looking at something he couldn't see) and I heard him, but was so busy debating the nature of reality it was hard to answer. The second time, it was a scene that was so real I actually didn't know what I'd seen wasn't really there until a few days later, when I went to the same spot and looked at it again. That was 3-D, living color, complete with smells & everything. Scared the heck out of me when I realized what I'd seen and what was actually there were totally different.

That whole idea of, "We create our own reality" or "Your words have power, even if you don't say them out loud"

For what ever reason, these ideas make a lot of sense to me too. They're also something my T talks about a lot. I think this is something I used, growing up, to help me put the best spin I could on things.
.

 

[DogwoodTree]

I thought most everyone is the same.

It's called aphantasia when you can't see pictures in your mind. Here's a link with a little quiz:

Aphantasia

Basically, yes. I know I'm remembering, not experiencing,

How do you remember something if you can't see it happening in your mind? I'm trying to visualize that, lolol.

I even visualize words in order to understand them. When someone is talking, their words scroll across my visual field so I can understand the words. When I'm thinking, the words scroll across and also drop into a makeshift sentence diagram, so I can make sure it all makes sense. If I'm not "seeing" the words, I don't really understand what was said, and I certainly don't remember it. But if I "see" the words, I have a really good memory of exactly what was said, almost word-for-word, for large portions of a conversation.

For what ever reason, these ideas make a lot of sense to me too. They're also something my T talks about a lot. I think this is something I used, growing up, to help me put the best spin I could on things.

I still think there's some truth to these things, that we do create our own reality to a degree. But there are many things we don't have control of. I always told myself God has control of those things, and maybe He does, and maybe His priorities are just so incredibly different from ours that His decisions don't make sense. Or maybe He doesn't have control of everything. Maybe He prioritizes free will over saving people from suffering. I don't know. I decided I need to step back from almost everything I believe about God, and wait for Him to introduce Himself to me without all my preconceptions getting in the way. So my beliefs don't look like much of anything at the moment. And I've decided that's okay for now. I don't have to convince anyone anymore that I'm believing "right". Oddly enough, it's a Catholic monk (I'm not Catholic, but I hang out at his monastery a lot) who's been the most encouraging for me to step away from what I think my spirituality is "supposed" to look like, and find out who I really am spiritually.

 

[scout86]

How do you remember something if you can't see it happening in your mind?

That's a good question and i don't exactly understand the answer. My T says I have a well developed kinetic sense. My brain seems to store spatial relationships pretty well. I remember, for instance, how a house was laid out, basically "where stuff is/was". So, when thinking about a past event, some sort of sense of where things were and how they interacted comes to mind. I actually do the same thing when I'm trimming feet. I "know" what a foot is "supposed" to look like and remove everything else. Very accurately, but no pictures. It sort of doesn't seem possible, even to me, but that's the way it works. As an example, I described my my paternal grandfather's house to an aunt, and got the details right, even though I was only there a few times, probably before the age of 6, and haven't been there since. We were talking about visualizing in therapy the other day. When I told my T about that house, he asked "where" I was seeing it from. Like was I outside the house, about the house, or what? Kind of floored me because that seemed pretty bizarre. I remember it as if I'm standing in the house and moving from room to room. He asked if I could see what was behind me. I told him I can't SEE it, but I KNOW what's behind me. LOL The whole thing is weird and interesting both.

When I'm thinking, the words scroll across and also drop into a makeshift sentence diagram, so I can make sure it all makes sense. If I'm not "seeing" the words, I don't really understand what was said, and I certainly don't remember it.

That totally makes sense. I "hear" the words. In fact, that's kind of what memory is for me. I narrate what I remember, but I think a lot of what I'm remembering is narrating what's stored as that other sense.

to step away from what I think my spirituality is "supposed" to look like, and find out who I really am spiritually.

That totally makes sense too. Something I've found comforting is to read the Bible with the idea of trying to see what traits were shared by the people God seemed to be particularity close to. A lot of them were pretty flawed. David? "A man after God's own heart"? My personal favorite, from the OT, is Moses. Arguing with God? (A lot.) I finally decided what God really likes appears to be honestly. And, I try to keep in mind that the theory is he made us the way we are, so he must be basically ok with that.