Confusing therapy experience- could this be countertransference or something else?

[sidptitala]

I'm curious to hear if any of you have had experience with a therapist having countertransference issues with you? Could you tell/did they tell you? Did you keep seeing them?

I have no idea if that is what's happening with my fairly new (to me) therapist or not. But it's one possibility.

I saw him a handful of times over the summer. I experienced him then as calm and helpful and he experienced me as depressed but relatively stable (he said this).

I've since started working (about 6 weeks ago) in a really triggering environment for me (didn't realise it would be so triggering, but here we are). It has probably significantly changed the way I'm presenting to my therapist (extra alert, flashbacks, lots of energy, everything feels so urgent and terrible).

The first time I saw him since this change I told him I felt like I was losing my mind because in my new job (in a post-war, but currently peaceful place) in emergencies I often felt like I was in the war again. What I meant by this is that I was worried I was insane because I knew there was something off about my perceptions. The situation was that a client came to me just after she tried to drown herself one morning, and I felt in the moment the river she tried to drown herself in became soldiers that wanted to shoot her.

He asked did I mean like a psychosis and I said no. It was that terrible fear from the war place came over me and I didn't feel like I had the peacetime options for helping her, only the war ones (which are basically none). I told him I was getting really confused about where I am and how much danger there is, in general. I did also have the pictures in my head from war when I tried protecting people and the army shot them instead. I understood that it was not literally happening now with the client. It was more like the intensity of the feelings that I couldn't protect people and they would die. But he had already stopped listening at this point and told me not to get hung up on whether I'm hallucinating or not.

I think I was hoping for reassurance that I was not insane and some practical discussion of how to handle things like that. This therapist works mostly with abuse victims about trauma so I thought he might understand this type of reaction (before this war thing I had mostly been talking about setting boundaries with my family to try to feel safe from the person who abused me).

The rest of the session he urged me not to do any of the things I had been working towards in therapy (communicate with my family about boundaries and keep going to work).
I felt frustrated because I am doing these things to try to survive and didn't feel like I had other options (and was confused as well about how he suddenly stopped supporting these things). Anything I said he challenged strongly. I was glad to leave and a bit shocked talking about this went so badly.

Next time I came back he said was worried about me. That in the last session I described dissociating and when I was talking about it I did it again. I said that I perceived myself as frustrated rather than dissociating necessarily (I was quietly frustrated instead of voicing this).

Then he asked me a lot of questions about how depressed I am, and if I ever want to commit suicide. I answered but didn't really understand where the topic came from. I described a flashback, he shut me down and told me all of my goals were wrong, i think misidentified dissociation when I wasn't doing it and now he is asking me if I want to kill myself? Does this confuse anyone else as much as it confuses me? (lol)

I'm really struggling to understand what's going on here. I will ask him next time but also feel the need to try to figure it out first.

I wonder is he just uncomfortable with flashbacks and thinks having them means I want to kill myself? He calls flashbacks dissociation whereas to me they are different? (I experience both). But that seems weird from a therapist who mainly deals with abuse trauma.

I wonder if my increased energy since makes him think I am suicidal? But it's just hyperarousal because I got a job so it's the opposite of suicidal (it's an extreme want to survive threat)

I am also aware that I told him a story about a client of mine being suicidal, and being worried she would die like the previous experience- and he got worried I was suicidal myself. Without me ever saying that. I could tell he panicked and started acting different than ever before. It makes me wonder if he could have been experiencing some type of countertransference reaction? If he has had clients die before and me telling that story brought it up for him.

I know nobody can answer these questions for me but I really am interested in anyone's take on this. Does anything I've written here make sense or not make sense to you?

Am I just being difficult? This whole thing feels unsettling (so does everything though, ptsd lol)

 

[Charbella]

I’d say he was being a trauma therapist. I notice in here and I’m guessing in session you don’t really answer the suicidal question. When I’m super depressed it’s my go to thought so it seems a fair question.

What you’re describing is pretty extreme. It’s like you empathized to the point of a flashback. I think it’s hard to work in a job that needs empathy if you can’t put everything in a box while you’re there.

As far as dissociation is concerned, I had the same reaction to being told I do it a lot. I did a lot of back and forth with the AI here to understand it a little more and found my therapist was right. I didn’t like that answer but it didn’t make it wrong.

I thought dissociation was more losing time and shutting everything out. For me that is an extreme rarity. Generally I know exactly how much time has passed and can hear a pin drop. But for me it’s an extreme level of thought and unable to really get much out of those minutes, not really sure how to describe it but indeed it falls in that category. Some say that a flashback is on the dissociation continuum, the most extreme level of it. A milder version is where you arrive at work and can’t remember the trip, something that most of the population does.

Maybe it’s understanding what your therapist is seeing from their side of the couch.

 

[sidptitala]

I’d say he was being a trauma therapist

Can you say more about that? I don't really understand it

I notice in here and I’m guessing in session you don’t really answer the suicidal question.

I did answer him, I'm not suicidal and have never talked with him about feeling that way. This is why I struggle to understand why he would suddenly only want to talk about that. I didn't say it again here because it didn't seem relevant.

What you’re describing is pretty extreme. It’s like you empathized to the point of a flashback

Do you mean the situation at now work is extreme, the previous soldier situation was extreme or me having a flashback is extreme?

Some say that a flashback is on the dissociation continuum, the most extreme level of it

I've read this too and it makes sense. To me though a flashback is an intrusion of memories. And dissociation is more generally not being here. (It also make sense to me that my frustration might read as that as I've a lot of previous training to not show frustration).

Maybe it’s understanding what your therapist is seeing from their side of the couch.

Yes, that is what I'm finding challenging and I suppose why I asked for people's input here.

 

[Charbella]

Can you say more about that? I don't really understand it

I guess I just mean they see things that others wouldn’t.

This is why I struggle to understand why he would suddenly only want to talk about that.

Maybe he thinks you aren’t being honest with yourself or him? I could see being concerned about it and maybe the way your answering seems suspect. You could always reiterate how it hasn’t ever been an issue for you.

Do you mean the situation at now work is extreme, the previous soldier situation was extreme or me having a flashback is extreme?

It was more than a flashback because you put someone else into it. That seems extreme but having not had that experience maybe I just don’t know. Flashbacks, yes I’ve had/have those but never having turned someone else’s experience into it. Maybe it’s just the way you worded it. Did you mean she was telling her story and it triggered a flashback of you in a war situation?

And dissociation is more generally not being here.

Except apparently it’s not. Like I said the AI helped me understand it better, maybe you could try that.

 

[sidptitala]

guess I just mean they see things that others wouldn’t.

Ok, that makes sense

Did you mean she was telling her story and it triggered a flashback of you in a war situation?

Yes. When I last worked in this type of role it was protecting civilians from being killed at war. So when she was talking about drowning herself I found myself suddenly back in the war headspace. She didn't notice and no one else did. I hope if I find training for what I'm doing now I can interrupt myself from relying on what I did in my last job. I didn't even notice I had felt like I was back in war until I left work for the day, then I realised and started to have the actual regular flashbacks about war (at home, alone).

the AI helped me understand it better, maybe you could try that.

Thanks

 

[Weemie]

he urged me not to do any of the things I had been working towards in therapy (communicate with my family about boundaries and keep going to work).

I described a flashback, he shut me down and told me all of my goals were wrong,

Do you mean he said "don't talk to your family, don't keep good boundaries, stop going to work, all of your goals are wrong"? Because if so, dump this guy. He's a piece of shit and a dangerous therapist.

But, I'm curious as to what the actual interaction consisted of - are those the actual words he used? Or is this the conclusion you've drawn from something different that he said?

We can't know the difference since we weren't there. If that's a verbatim quote, he's an absolutely deranged dipshit who shouldn't be allowed within five feet of a client.

 

[sidptitala]

are those the actual words he used? Or is this the conclusion you've drawn from something different that he said?

No not the actual words and yes what I've taken from them. His actual words were I should avoid talking to my mom and also should look for a different job. I guess it surprised me since those 2 things (finding and keeping the job i found, and talking to my mom) were the small pieces of progress i've made, with his support up to now.

I'm just struggling to understand the change.

 

[Weemie]

His actual words were I should avoid talking to my mom and also should look for a different job

I think no matter the context this was said in, this is bad therapy. Therapists aren't there to tell you what to do, they're only there to help you realize what will make you happy. If talking to your mom is a goal that you have, he should be supporting this and helping you develop skills to communicate with her and moderate your distress. This is counter transference. A lot of therapists can't get out of their own way, and start tripping over their own shit on the way to yours.

 

[Movingforward10]

Ah, these things with therapists are SO HARD.

I think what's going on here is a classic rupture. You bringing in transference and the T bringing in countertransference.

a really triggering environment for me (didn't realise it would be so triggering, but

Right now, things are triggering for you. Sometimes in this state, we assess everything from this triggered state. Which could include your assessment and experience of your T.
You feel he has changed since you have felt triggered. And perhaps he has as he has sensed a change in you and he's wanting to help you out of it?
And perhaps you are both missing each other and misunderstanding each other?
All at the worst time possible for you.

was losing my mind

This is being triggered and shows you're struggling right now.

But he had already stopped listening at this point

How do you know? Or was this how you experienced it?
Can you ask him if he stopped listening and telling him that's how you experienced him? Could be a really good conversation

he urged me not to do

What were his words?

back he said was worried about me.

And he had reason to? You were worried about you as you felt you were losing your mind. His assessment things with you were not ok was accurate? ,

he shut me down
What did he say? Or is this how you felt rather than it being his intention?
I absolutely get how this feels. One of the major ruptures I had with my T, I felt totally silenced when in a very bad place. It was horrendous. But talking it through, over several sessions, helped me understand I was bringing in my past and T was bringing in her stuff, and we both just clashed. But we got over it. With communication.

and told me all of my goals were wrong,

We're these his words? Or how you felt the message was?



All the questions above are basically saying: sometimes when we are triggered our T's have this thing of how they behave. Which I feel is sometimes counterintuitive to what I feel I need in that moment. And rupture occurs.
They become quite firm and challenge more. In an effort to get us out of the space we are in.
Sometimes that works. Sometimes it really really doesn't.

Can you bring all this up with him? Basically say everything you have said here to him?

 

[sidptitala]

Therapists aren't there to tell you what to do, they're only there to help you realize what will make you happy. If talking to your mom is a goal that you have, he should be supporting this and helping you develop skills to communicate with her and moderate your distress.

Yes, I think this is what frustrated me. He obviously felt it was warranted but I didn't.

This is counter transference. A lot of therapists can't get out of their own way, and start tripping over their own shit on the way to yours.

I think what's going on here is a classic rupture. You bringing in transference and the T bringing in countertransference.

Thank you both for your thoughts about this, it's really helping me to understand it. I am sure I must be bringing transference in because I'm pretty badly spooked by him. And I do feel like he is reacting to something which is not me, which is part of the spookiness for me. (The other part is he is a MAN, from the same service that reported abuse against my will before, he is pretty new to me, he's not available very often, and he jokingly blocked the door last time I saw him which really freaked me out).

Right now, things are triggering for you. Sometimes in this state, we assess everything from this triggered state. Which could include your assessment and experience of your T.

This is being triggered and shows you're struggling right now.

Thank you for pointing this out to me.

Can you ask him if he stopped listening and telling him that's how you experienced him? Could be a really good conversation

We kind of did have this conversation. He (afterwards) said he thought I was dissociating at the time when I started to answer his question - he asked me to describe the flashback I was having at work. I experienced myself as present enough, to be honest. He asked me if it was a psychotic experience. So I said no, and started to explain more what it was like. In the middle of that explanation he stopped me in the middle of the sentence and said in a very direct way 'don't get hung up on what it was.'

So I think I interpreted this as him saying
'You are crazy'
'You shouldn't need to talk about this'
'There are consequences for talking about this'
'I am uncomfortable with dissociation or flashbacks or don't know how to work with them'
'I am going to ask you questions and then prevent you from answering'

What were his words?

I have no idea how it got from there to other subjects, but I experienced it as him asking rapid fire questions and not giving me space to answer. This is where he was telling me things and I really didn't appreciate it. Especially when I said, 'I know I need to talk to my mom, but I am worried when I do that I will lose her.' And he responded 'I don't think that's likely'

That really frustrated me. Because I have lost her before and I have been upfront about this with the therapist. I only have her even in part now because she hopes I'll reconcile with my dad, and I am planning to tell her I can't do that and ask for her to accept that. It frustrated me because he absolutely does not know this and if I trusted him I would be setting myself up for major, major heartache by believing he does.

He moved to other subjects from there and what ever I said he seemed to say either

'I don't think think that's a good idea' or 'Why would you do that?', sometimes both. I felt again like he was panicking and I was auditioning for sanity - proving I'm trying to do things to get better, proving I have a plan to improve.

i have so so so so so much training in life to hide anger and frustration. I think this is what he saw as dissociation - because I know that challenging a man can be very dangerous and I am afraid of him, but I don't feel the freedom to say that.

I think I'm struggling with trust and safety more generally with this therapist. I'm battling his assumption that I do trust him and feel safe with him. It scared the hell out of me when he jokingly blocked the door. Why would that be funny? I have told him my dad did that, it was the worst part for me - being unable to escape. We both know he is a man and can do that- why the need to remind me?)

I don't feel like I know him or he knows me yet. I've been to see him 5 times since June. I went 2 weeks in a row once (and that helped) but it never happened again. I don't know if he can help me. I don't know how long we have, or what weeks he will be here and what weeks not. We might be on different wavelengths about whether it matters. It does matter to me because it allows me to have other strategies for surviving than just trusting him. Because I can't do that without being shown he can be trusted.

Can you bring all this up with him? Basically say everything you have said here to him?

I will try to say these things to him but actually I think I need first to go back to basics and ask him when he is going to be here. I don't know if I am just being a drama queen but coming every week feels like it would help me and I don't know if going this infrequently is worse than not going at all.

All the questions above are basically saying: sometimes when we are triggered our T's have this thing of how they behave. Which I feel is sometimes counterintuitive to what I feel I need in that moment. And rupture occurs.

I'm not glad you had this experience also, but thank you for telling me about it.

They become quite firm and challenge more. In an effort to get us out of the space we are in.
Sometimes that works. Sometimes it really really doesn't.

Do you understand their thought process behind it? (sorry if this comes across as pedantic, I am trying to unspook myself)

 

[Weemie]

he jokingly blocked the door last time I saw him which really freaked me out)

I would immediately get a new therapist. Everything you've described here is a red flag. This guy is not fit to be a therapist and he's making a joke of your trauma and essentially laughing at you. Time for someone new.

 

[Movingforward10]

I'll respond to your post more fully later on but just wanted to say that this:

he jokingly blocked the door last time I saw him

Is a major red flag.
If any man did this to me, I would be very wary of him and either never see him again or avoid him as much as possible. As a therapist, I have no idea why he would do this other than: massive red flags


So, everything else that I respond to and share about ruptures will need to be put into the context of: he acted highly inappropriately there.