Sexual Assault I didn't say no, but i didn't say yes.

[User88]

Well to me, it doesn’t matter what the reason is why a woman doesn’t want to have sex with a guy at that moment. It’s irrelevant whether the reason was lack of protection.

Maybe I’ve read the first message wrong, I don’t know. If someone said to me “I don’t think this is a good idea” I wouldn’t take that as a yes it’s ok for me to have sex with them.

 

[mumstheword]

It's a really wishy washy answer. Lots of people can know the sex isn't a "good idea" and go there anyway.

We like to encourage clear boundaries and not support calling any kind of sex that doesn't actually fall under the "rape" category rape.

Being really loose with your boundaries is going to lead to situations you aren't happy with. That's the responsibility of the person who has the wishy washy boundaries. It's the only empowering approach.

I've had loads of predatory sex when I was young, as in, I wasn't really "in my right mind" and guys took advantage of that. It wasn't rape though, although, technically, if I was American It would have been considered statutory rape, not here in Australia though. I have to take responsibility that I got myself in a lot of risky, devaluing and regretful sexual situations. That's for me to own.

The only times I was raped were clear cut rape, all the other times I gave tacit consent, it was "resigned" sex , maybe even "survival sex" but I can't say they were rapists just sexually predatory creeps because there wasn't a clear "this guy is not someone I would ever go there with, he completely forced me" criteria happening.

 

[shimmerz]

“I don’t think this is a good idea” I wouldn’t take that as a yes it’s ok for me to have sex with them.

I think it is important to recognize that in the society we live in today, this attitude is the exception rather than the rule. I think it is important to realize that just because you would have stopped - that doesn't mean that there wasn't a problem with communication in this situation.

Men out there are dropping like flies and I want to say that if this is happening, the women who are charging them had better be clear as a freaking bell as to what they do or don't want when it comes to sexual exchanges. It is not fair at all to men to speak with ambiguity and then ponder publicly whether it was sexual assault afterwards. Men's lives are being destroyed in these types of transactions.

 

[somerandomguy]

I wonder why we are telling men that consent is A MUST before sex, but at the same time NOT telling women that having boundaries is also A MUST before sex?

In a perfect world, both men and women would be taught that they need to vocalize clear boundaries about what they do and do not want before any sexual encounter, and then also ensure the consent of all parties.

But all that's happening is that men are being taught that she has to say "yes" first, as if consent is only a man's responsibility. It's a recipe for disaster, and men are being unfairly blamed for all of it.

 

[ILoveLife]

I don't think laws can dictate what is right and wrong, abusive, rape, etc. The ambiguity of consent clearly proves that, and it's not a gendered issue but clearly a human/societal issue.
We are bombarded with sexually evoking publicity everywhere, it's on tv too and everywhere you look - so is violence btw.
It's a mandatory unspoken rule that to be in a relationship you have to have sex, and it's a reason why so many marriages fail or have problems, couple's therapy is filled with people who don't feel adequate in bed towards their spouses.
If we really think about it, we all know we shouldn't have to have sex if we don't want to, but the same way little boys are told they must man up and have sex, women have the unspoken word of submission (at least in my country, this still happens) which all taken into account is a recipe for disaster down the line. I'm not even taking abuse into account here, just general society unspoken rules.

If you had any idea the amount of times I was told to have sex to advance in careers, you'd be shocked.

Unfortunately feminism is still very relevant, unfortunately the wrong doings of a few are taking the whole male genre with it.
We need to start focusing on what matters instead of genre blaming from both sides.

 

[mumstheword]

I think it's beyond gender. It's not something to put on men. It's just as much women's responsibility as men's.
I see abuse happening, not male abuse happening to females but male abuse to other males, female abuse to other females, female abuse to males and male abuse to females. Genderizing it adds a really problematic addition to the issue, unless your talking policy geared at oppressing women, like Sharia law as one example, but then again, plenty of women are colluding with that stuff.

In certain countries genital mutilation is carried out by female family members and let's not forget routine baby male genital mutilation throughout the West.
So no, I don't agree that third wave feminism is actually addressing a whole bunch of systemic problems. My 20 year old son would disagree though, he is a self proclaimed feminist and I respect his reasons.

 

[ILoveLife]

@mumstheword actual feminism is not third wave feminism.
Actual feminism is equal rights for all genders. Simple and I think we can all agree with that.

 

[somerandomguy]

Actual feminism is equal rights for all genders. Simple and I think we can all agree with that.

Sigh. Yes, but ... (There's always someone who says "Yes, but.")

The word "feminism" has been co-opted by people with so many different philosophies that the term has become meaningless. I agree at its base that the term SHOULD mean equal rights for all genders (which brings up another issue, which is why call it "feminism" if it advocates equally for non-women?), but in actual practice someone who calls themselves a feminist may or may not advocate equality for all genders.

We don't have a better term. People have been trying to make the term "egalitarian" happen, but it hasn't stuck. "Intersectional" sort of does it, but I've interacted with several individuals who have called themselves intersectional feminists who still thought white cis men were the root of all evil.

 

[ILoveLife]

In any social movement there are those who ruin it for the rest of us.. Lol it's not funny, though. Seriously upsetting.
I'm a feminist, social rights equally for both genders, but I no longer hang out with other feminists, we're all in different varieties and most feminists are no more informed about the reality of abuse than the regular person. Or they nit pick what's convenient.

I do live in a very macho country, so feminism here makes a lot of sense still.

the term has become meaningless

Not really, it's like saying communism has become irrelevant but all sociology majors study Marx.

in actual practice someone who calls themselves a feminist may or may not advocate equality for all genders

Hey, I'm one, I know a few others. Do we not matter?

 

[somerandomguy]

Hey, I'm one, I know a few others. Do we not matter?

You matter, but you're not loud enough. You're 100% correct that the extremists ruin everything for everyone, and that goes for both men and women. They are the loudest voices in any movement and since they only interact with each other and the loudest voices on the other side, they are disproportionately influential - in a bad way. I wish there was a solution. Personal, face-to-face interaction with others who you may disagree with seems to be the only remedy, but it's so much easier and more fun to argue over the internet.

 

[mumstheword]

@mumstheword actual feminism is not third wave feminism.
Actual feminism is equal rig...

It really doesn't seem to pan out that way a lot of the time though, in my experience.

I call myself an equalist because it's not a genderized word. It expresses the same sentiment without the implied gender bias.

As someone who's really been hurt and oppressed by women and who's seen all my male family members oppressed by females and my male partner really badly damaged by a number of women (and men) I really can't wholeheartedly agree with some of the underlying premises that modern day feminism represents.

That being said, that doesn't mean I'm not %100 pro liberation for women. I am grateful for the political movements like the suffragette movement and I admire women like Ayaan Hirsri Ali, who I think calls herself a feminist, as having tremendous relevance for woman's rights in today's world, but in general, I feel I've been hindered by some of the dogma and rhetoric bandied about by modern "feminism".

I see a lot of men hurting and dying because of the sexism and female chauvinism hiding under the guise of feminism and the subsequent female biased law enforcement and support services that result from buying into a females-are-automatically-victims kind of dogma that plenty of feminists espouse.

I'm a unique woman with a set of unique experiences and I'm not against it, I just have my own views and I don't think everyone needs to call themselves a feminist to espouse equality and fairness, in terms of ideals and values.
Nor do I think It's healthy to be blind to the problems that have clear correlations and outcomes resulting from unexamined, rather than fact-based, feminist ideologies and premises.

 

[ILoveLife]

Personal, face-to-face interaction with others seems to be the only remedy, but it's so much easier and more fun to argue over the internet.

Agreed. Most of us are giving up, they're louder and aggressive.

hiding under the guise of feminism

This is important.
Disqualifying an entire worldwide very important movement for the shit some say.. I do think it's the right way to do things, its what I'm saying. I agree with you with the rest of it :)