General I Think I've Got A Name For It Now... Childhood Emotional Neglect.

[Abstract]

I agree with a lot of what you say Eleanor. I think there are other patterns than coping in an opposite way but it is one of the dynamics that play out.

What I have noticed with supporters that come here is that a lot are codependent or have caretaking issues. Have problems with taking care of their needs. Childhood emotional neglect is definitely an inroad to codependency. I would include having a narcissistic or borderline parent or a parent with an addiction though. Or any mental illness in fact. Which all almost inevitably lead to CEN unless the parent is very dedicated and determined for it not to happen. I often wonder at supporters childhoods when I see the patterns of accepting abuse and more.

I think its more a case of some of those with these issues (caretaking etc) developing PTSD and some not but both ending up trapped in certain roles in relationships.

I think the supporters who are not very supportive and who are being supported by their PTSD spouse are not coming on the site!

Not sure if you have ever read Families and how to survive them by John Kleese and someone I can't remember. It is a great read and so perfectly puts across what draws people to each other and what plays out after. Including what you mention when one grows and the other doesn't. Its also funny which is not surprising with John Kleese and makes for easy reading.

One of the problems when PTSD is the centre of attention is that all the other types of abuse can be ignored. Things that are not technically traumatic in a PTSD sense can hugely affect development and so much more. And put people in harms way which can potentially cause them to end up with PTSD after all.

You know all this of course and I am just joining my voice to the choir! ;)

 

[DMerish]

This is such an important thread! I don't know how I overlooked it earlier.

It was apparent to me from the age of ten or so that what I had/was experiencing was emotional neglect. I mean, it was so apparent. There's no way any child could live with a parent that "wasn't there" emotionally/mentally and was incapable of doing stuff, i.e.my mother. I can't cannot questionably recall ever being mentally, emotionally, or physically being abused (except for one incident related to possible, minor sexual molestation by my brother). But neglected? Oh, yes! It's stunted my inner growth, my intellectual growth, and the development of having a healthy relationship to myself. And I'm still "not right" - It is still "not right" in my late middle-age. Grrrrgh!
I cannot remember the last time a family member has asked me "How are you?" Not by someone honestly interested, nor by anyone even asking the question in the most casual off-the-cuff way that the question is often posed.

Woops, careful now, Drew.

That façade of not needing anyone and being strong all the time for other people to lean on might just topple.

Yuck! I'm a mess!!! :eek:

 

[maddog]

Not in a space to say much about this very good thread for now, other than to say that having experienced all forms of abuse as achild, I do truly believe that the damage done by emotional abuse and neglect (they are different, yet overlap, of course) possibly runs deeper and more pervasive than that done by any other individual form of abuse. I also believe that emotional abuse/neglect is harder to identify, harder to directly treat and is a more long term commitment to healing from. Tragically, it is also the form of abuse that is still, in some quarters, not even recognized as trauma and not treated accordingly.

I know they seem like sweeping statements and generalisations and reflect my own views only, but I have long maintained now that the emotional abuse and neglect, which so damaged and formed my personality, relational style and self concept, will be the longest-lasting trauma legacy I will deal with, even when I hope that much of the processing of physical and sexual trauma has taken place.

Maddog

 

[EverOnly358]

Well, my pet theory is that people fall in love with others who are just as screwed up as they are, but in an opposite way. So if one has issues about, say, control, you will almost certainly fall in love with someone who has the same issue, but the opposite coping strategy. So if I deal with my control issues by being mostly out of control, and letting others call the shots I will fall in love with someone who always keeps themselves and those around them on a very tight rein.

Wow, you just described my marriage, LOL! And now, when I'm trying desperately hard to be different (dare I say healthier) it's causing ALL sorts of crazy problems. It's like there's no room in my marriage to be anything but screwed up.

"If it was trained in, it can be trained out." so says my old horse trainer.

I hear you! The thing is, I do alright the first time... explaining that things need to change... but one time isn't enough, and I just haven't managed to do well at explaining again and again and again. Gah!

Yuck! I'm a mess!!! :eek:

Yeah, me too. ;) The thing is, the PTSD stuff doesn't phase me anymore (knock on wood)... dealing with trauma, dealing with triggers, dealing with symptoms. It's straight forward. Yeah, it's f-ing difficult and I still have some problems, definitely, but it's straight forward. It's the stupid crap I learned as a kid... that I was worthless and ignored and it didn't matter that I was hungry or thirsty or upset... none of that mattered, my feelings didn't matter at all... that's the crap that seems just impossible to fix! That's the thing that my therapists don't seem to have a grasp on. How can I make and follow through on big plans for the future when I can spend days not eating or drinking water because I think I don't deserve it? Jeez... let's work on getting me to think I deserve WATER and then move on to the bigger stuff, y'know? But normal people just don't get it. I dunno. It's very frustrating and extremely hard to describe, especially when I really did grow up not understanding that my childhood was different from most other kids childhoods. I didn't even know anything was wrong!

 

[Abstract]

I agree MD and D123.

It's the pervasiveness of it all. I also beat myself up about finding it as destroying as I do. Nothing new of course as I attack myself for just about everything. Another consequence of emotional abuse including emotional neglect.

I haven't shared much on here as it feels too exposing but when it comes to things like this it hugely affects the everyday things. Functioning, looking after ourselves, feeling like we have a place in the world and have a right to a personality of our own, managing relationships with others and interacting with the world and ourselves in general. So painful, all encompassing and difficult to manage.

 

[Eleanor]

That façade of not needing anyone and being strong all the time for other people to lean on might just topple.

Aristotle says: "A man who doesn't need other men is either a god or a beast." We are, in the final analysis, social animals. There is no shame in needing others, it is in our nature just as much as needing to eat food or drink water. It is just what we are. The shame is that we rely so much on our early caretakers to make us Good Animals.

Tragically, it is also the form of abuse that is still, in some quarters, not even recognized as trauma and not treated accordingly.

That's the kicker isn't it. It is not a "trauma" per se. It is just.... not. It is a nearly invisible form of neglect, but crucial to healthy development. Have people always been this indifferent to children's emotional lives? Here is the list of needs from the Center For Non-Violent Communication, notice how many of them are impacted by emotional neglect.

Link Removed

(failed to be able to cut and paste... grrrr.)

Anyway it is AMAZING how many of the Connection and Meaning needs (needs!) get messed up by CEN

but one time isn't enough, and I just haven't managed to do well at explaining again and again and again.

Repetition is key. And, like Mary Poppins, "never explain anything." :D Did you explain yourself before? No I think not. Just change the expectation. Become the short of person who expects others to be considerate and caring and act accordingly. Explaining so often morphs into being defensive or justifying what should need no defense or justification.

But normal people just don't get it. I dunno. It's very frustrating and extremely hard to describe, especially when I really did grow up not understanding that my childhood was different from most other kids childhoods. I didn't even know anything was wrong!

I hear what you are saying. And SO SO SO identify. I for YEARS said things like "I had a perfect childhood - no traumas, lots of privilege." I was pretty, good at school etc etc. Just... not nurtured emotionally. What's the big deal, right? I wondered and wondered "What is WRONG with me?"

This article came up at a good time, I'd done a session with my T about three weeks ago on "I don't matter". OMG so much grief (and tears and SNOT, I made a puddle on the deck, not exaggerating.) Once the energy around that got expressed I could reach out to the little me's (inner children) and Tell them that I Matter, and they Matter to me, so they Matter. It is making a difference. In those little things. Not a miraculous transformation, but things seem a bit easier...I feel like I am thinking more clearly about my needs. I am eating a bit better. Got serious about sleep. Or maybe it is just getting over the flu and starting antidepressants :cautious::shifty::bag: Or maybe those are symptoms of Mattering to myself. No way to know. I am starting to feel like I might just actually Matter. Not just think it when I am making an argument to myself.

 

[EverOnly358]

Anyway it is AMAZING how many of the Connection and Meaning needs (needs!) get messed up by CEN

Jeez... that list is long. Overwhelming. I think I'll concentrate on the air, water, food, shelter stuff, LOL! But the other category that really gets affected so much is "Autonomy." I struggle with all of those. It's actually ridiculous how screwed up I am! ;)

And, like Mary Poppins, "never explain anything." :D Did you explain yourself before? No I think not. Just change the expectation. Become the short of person who expects others to be considerate and caring and act accordingly. Explaining so often morphs into being defensive or justifying what should need no defense or justification.

Ex-act-ly! That's the thing. I hate the idea of boundaries... I'm so bad at it, I'm not about to go around declaring, "Look here, I have this new boundary and everyone must obey!" Ridiculous. Normal people (by that, I mean people who grew up learning this stuff in a healthier environment than me) don't ever talk about boundaries... they just have them. So, like, I try really to just believe it myself and point out if I'm feeling like things are wrong because of someone else's actions (instead of talking about boundaries... just know what my own fledgling boundaries are and make sure they're being respected). I'm SO NOT good at it, but I am trying to get better. The thing is... I might do it once or maybe twice, and even get decent results... but then somehow I lose sight of the idea I had in the first place... that I'm worth it. I dunno. It's just practice, practice, practice, I guess. One day I might have a firm grasp on those expectations, but that day is not today. So... I feel like it's just so confusing for the people around me. I dunno. It's complicated stuff so prone to error or misinterpretation. None of it comes naturally. I feel like it's going to take a decade before I will have made some significant progress! Add to that having trouble recognizing and expressing my emotions, and it's such a messed up tangle! It's so frustrating! Gah!

Once the energy around that got expressed I could reach out to the little me's (inner children) and Tell them that I Matter, and they Matter to me, so they Matter.

Okay... you're the first person I remember saying "inner children" because that's my thing... if it was one inner child, that would be one thing, but it's not! I have several, and they all seem to want different things. It's crazy in my head. ;) But yeah... starting those conversations immediately made things better for me. And it's easier to do some things because I could think about doing it for them if not just for me, and that does help.

Functioning, looking after ourselves, feeling like we have a place in the world and have a right to a personality of our own, managing relationships with others and interacting with the world and ourselves in general. So painful, all encompassing and difficult to manage.

Yes! I beat myself up about it, too. I want to tell you so much... don't beat yourself up about it! You had a difficult childhood. You didn't deserve anything that happened to you. You're working on it now, so you're doing everything you can. You deserve to be happy and healthy. And I truly mean those words for you, @Abstract. The nutty thing is, I cannot seem to say those same words to myself no matter how hard I try. One day, I guess.

 

[Tinyflame]

Well I don't know about picking people with the same traumas, perhaps recognition of similar pain apllies. But I do think if one is taught, treated and shown they don't matter it's very hard to draw a different conclusion from within in adulthood.

 

[mamachick]

Eleanor I really agree with your pet theory about pairing up with someone just as screwed up. I convinced myself that my expectations were too high and ignored my husbands ineptness for a very long time. Only through therapy did I discover that my expectations were not excessive, and that his background was as screwed up as mine, however, he could never see it. I learned that he is passive aggressive. So where I want to avoid explosions and physical abuse, I chose and avoider that would undermine my efforts.

Unfortunately, he is unable to see where his behavior is PA and has an excuse for everything. So no progress was ever made. I have come to be direct about what I need, but our communication styles have never been able to be integrated together. This eventally left me resentful as it harmed our children and sabatoged our finances. I grew and he dug his heals in. In the end, it has been very destructive to myself and my daughters. He tunes it all out and feels no responsiblity in the failure. (not unusual for PA)

Someone else pointed out that supporters who do not really support do not come here. Im sure that is very true. I am still feeling unworthy and unlovable and abandon. Marital neglect is a covert form of abuse, and so overlooked. Sorry if I am not making much sense, I am exhausted after taking xanax for panic tonight.

 

[Eleanor]

I am still feeling unworthy and unlovable and abandon.

((((((((brat))))))))

These "invisible" dynamics are the toughest nuts to crack. And very very destructive, as you say, over the long run. The beginning is to self-parent, and try to feel within yourself (no relation to anyone else) that you are worth it to yourself, and to not abandon yourself. Eventually, I am told, this leads to self-love. Even if you can do it retrospectively, feel compassion for yourself as a child, and tell that child in you what she needed to hear, it will lift some of the burden. That is to say, it has for me, and I have hopes that it will for you too.

You make perfect sense to me!

 

[Tinyflame]

It makes sense to me too. ((((((Dear (Brat)))))) . I too feel that way, unlovable, unentitled, not abandoned per-se but alone and it being 'logical' to me that I should be abandoned, it comes without any other expectation, of what I'm 'entitled' to.

I too chose deleterious relationships, ran away from the good ones. Chose not to get married for that (and other reasons), knew they (the relationships) would only worsen.

I personally seem beyond the capacity to 'self-parent'. I did think this morning, when it seems beyond manageable, thinking of 'God' (or whatever one could choose as their belief) as 'with' me helps, 'with me', being the key (not just 'out there'). Perhaps because it is not dependent on others. Or more accurately, my inability to reach out. I think because reaching out seems worse than anything, even death, actually. And also being a person who feels once a problem is 'solved' it should be solved for good, and am (or try to be) logical, I have shame and little empathy for myself when it 're-occurs' (unfortunately the common theme with ptsd). Especially will it be likely to 're-occur' when the common default is back to what is described with CEN.

Hugs for you @Eleanor , too. ((((((Dear Eleanor))))))

 

[mamachick]

Sometimes I think I ran from the good relationships too, yet on further thought, Im not sure I have had any opportunities at the good ones as far as partner relationships. As far as it being that once we crack this nut, it will be permenant, it did not work that way for me.

I actually went through this when I had my two babies, 24-26 yrs ago. I began finding the child in myself and nurtured her. I did all the good things for myself. I quit smoking, I ate super healthy, I walked and went to exercise classes, slept well, had a good social life with a hand full of really good friends, and I seemed to be symptom-less, in spite of being married to a passive aggressive. During this time, I still had trouble asking others for help, I still did things on my own, but I felt strong and happy so I guess it was an illusion.

After seperating, my kids started acting rejecting, ex very critical, then dated a sociopath. It has all gone down hill little by little since. I am really afraid to get close to someone.

Hugs for all (((((all of t you who struggle with this))))