I suppose you are right ITL. I probably took what my T said to the extreme. I am to find value in myself just for who I am, not see may value as only coming from helping or caring for others. He says I am production oriented. I have to produce something in order to see value in myself.It is true, I feel I don't feel valuable unless I am doing something for someone or producing something. Where is the balance? I can't seem to find it in this instance.
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I Was Totally Honest Today
- Post starter intothelight
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Nicolette
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Awesome work ITL. You are also correct in saying it will set "us" free as, from the other side of the fence, we can only deal with what we know.
I remember a long time ago when my marriage didn't work out my mum decided to become the expert on my marriage and told me why it had failed - all my fault of course. She said I was too skinny, I didn't sit and eat dinner with him (hello, he worked night shift) and the list went on. I came to realise that even if these reasons were true I was not at fault as my ex husband NEVER once told me there was problem.
How can you fix something that is broken if you don't even know it is broken? How can you change something (if you want to) if you don't know it needs changing.
The truth will set you both free if you are honest with each other - not only you (win-win).
Great work again!
Iam, can get a sense of what you mean about the compassion, although I agree with ITL, it's real - coming from you.
Maybe the trick is to give what you give without having your value depend on it. You are just as valuable before you do something for someone as you are when you are doing that something. I don't think feeling yourself of more value will lessen your true compassion:)!
I think the "compulsive" kind of giving that you are pondering is the kind that can lead to resentment if you don't feel it is truly appreciated, as in when you are giving more than you are comfortable with.
Just some thoughts.........all rambling around..........in a commonly mixed-up-feeling kind of way.............:p
Maybe the trick is to give what you give without having your value depend on it. You are just as valuable before you do something for someone as you are when you are doing that something. I don't think feeling yourself of more value will lessen your true compassion:)!
I think the "compulsive" kind of giving that you are pondering is the kind that can lead to resentment if you don't feel it is truly appreciated, as in when you are giving more than you are comfortable with.
Just some thoughts.........all rambling around..........in a commonly mixed-up-feeling kind of way.............:p
You're not rambling around Seedling. Your point of view is much appreciated. I agree with what you are talking about as far as compulsive giving. There are times when I do that, it makes me feel trapped and yes, very definitely it creates resentment.
My T gave this advice..."True love is freely doing what is best for the other personwithout canceling out who you are." Even though this doesn't appear to have anything to do with self value at first glance, I think that goes along perfectly with what you are saying.
My T gave this advice..."True love is freely doing what is best for the other personwithout canceling out who you are." Even though this doesn't appear to have anything to do with self value at first glance, I think that goes along perfectly with what you are saying.
Love is love. People who live each other work through the worst and the best. My Carer knows most of my last story because he was around back then. I've told him some of the earlier traumas he didn't know about, but it's not anything shocking....just some shame about how it affected my self esteem. He has been very compassionate and he is not compassionate with people in general. I think the therapist will help guide on this and it will happen when it is best for you. Love is love.
Hi PTSD. I agree that love can work thru the bad, but even between loving partners there are healthy and unhealthy relationships. My husband and I have been together 33 years and yet we have some unhealthy habits that are extremely harmful to eachother as well as to our relationship. Will we work thru them, I believe we will just as we have overcome obstacles to our relationship in the past.
I think what we were talking about is when we dosomething because we feel compelled (usually by fear of abandonment) vs giving or doing freely because we want to. This goes for making changes in ourselves and how we do things. Are we making the changes because we want to or is it out of fear of abandoment?
I need to make changes in myself. I need to be more empathetic with my husband. Put myself in his shoes so that I can understand how he feels and why he acts the way he does instead of automatically assuming he is saying or doing something to control me. It is so easy to make assumptions based on past experience, hurts, joys etc. If I can have empathy for him I may just be willing to freely do something for him instead of feeling compelled to do it.
I don't know if what I just wrote makes any sense.
I think what we were talking about is when we dosomething because we feel compelled (usually by fear of abandonment) vs giving or doing freely because we want to. This goes for making changes in ourselves and how we do things. Are we making the changes because we want to or is it out of fear of abandoment?
I need to make changes in myself. I need to be more empathetic with my husband. Put myself in his shoes so that I can understand how he feels and why he acts the way he does instead of automatically assuming he is saying or doing something to control me. It is so easy to make assumptions based on past experience, hurts, joys etc. If I can have empathy for him I may just be willing to freely do something for him instead of feeling compelled to do it.
I don't know if what I just wrote makes any sense.
No, the riding crop isn't a compulsion! It isn't! It isn't! It isn't! It's perfectly normal behaviour for a 52 year old woman to drive back to one's house from 3 miles away when they've forgotten to bring it along on the shopping tirp, ask anybody! :D
This is kind of an awful discussion for me, but wonderful to watch. I'm doing it in the same way I remember watching 'Jaws', in the movies when it came out, between my fingers, sort of. Iams NO- your compassion is real, of course, you just do not feel worthy enough as a person to acknowledge the fine-ness of yourself as the person who would feel this way so need to kind of be able to explain the whole thing in a way which shows you in a negative light. It's real- not the warped way your head insists on interpreting things. I also wish you'd re-write your profile post. I don't mean to be pushy but it's not a great interpretation of your marraige, really, you know? One might, at a push, be able to stick that in there as an element whcih could be interpreted as having happened along the way as a result of events but you make it look like you've lain down in a ditch and pulled all the mud on top of yourself. We just haveeee to stop kicking ourselves, and this fastening on to the best possible way to kick ourselves has got to stop. I'm talking about me, to, no fear. Our dog had an unsuccessful conversation with skunk last night while I was out. When I got home my husband was looking GRIM ( as well he might- the house reeked,the dam dog had managed to rub eau de skunk on carpets and furniture before caught and he was frazzled ) and all I could think of was why he might be mad at ME. I had a good dam shot at trying to figure it out, too, why this random thing would be my fault- a skunk taking a short-cut across our yard! I genuinely thought of this discussion, too, and Deb saying we were all in the same place at the same time. I'd logged in as a guest and seen that, but in the evening do not have the mental resources to reply at the moment.( I do not really at 4 am, either, but it's a tad better than later on ). So I stood in front of the poor frazzled man and SAID I thought it was my fault. You could see he'd rather I really DID take my clothes off-you should have seen the puzzled bubble over his head, poor guy. I just said well, you know I always think everything is my fault and he just laughed and let me put my clothes back on. Not much, by way of revealing conversations but we both 'got it', and there will be more, having got that far.
Seedling made and awfully good point. She does that sort of thing, as does Junebug. I'll do one of these TOMES and one of them will leave a sentence or two and I'll think well, there's the whole thing in 20-words-or-less. What she said about putting so much out, and then not getting appreciated-boy does THAT set off the whole self worth dynamic. You know you've been more than genuine, actually, truly kind and well intentioned. It just plain feels like crap to not be validated which then makes one start spinning that stupid 'what do I know, I suck anyway' loop.
It's beyond frustrating to be this far 'in' to the whole PTSD journey and only have come/ventured/crawled SO far, Whomever I am is merely a reflection in other's eyes at the moment because I do not know that person-refuse to own all of her out of self dislike. I'll take the bad stuff, happily, apparently since it's what I know. Yes, I DO need to write more of those years. I'm NOT making excuses at this point for not. It's a little impossible at the moment. Here's naked. I'm in appaling pain until a ruptured cervical disc is fixed-this is why I'm up at all hours of the day and night.I've alluded to this but never said it. It's appaling and unspeakable and part of me feels underserving to even say that much, so that's the contained version. This of course makes all the other dreck much, much tougher to corral. This is 'whining'. you see. I lived with a sadist. He was a trauma surgeon who rather enjoyed pain and at he same time disallowed it. The abuse wasn't sexual. He just liked all forms of other pain, and if you did not he'd make sure he amped it up until you stopped minding so loudly. If he poked you in both eyes, and laughed while you couldn't see, he'd then crush your foot to see if that hurt more. If it did not, then he'd get mad, like for real and the fun would start. He once got angry because I cut my hand open while washing an oyster-opener. I didnt react enough ( I was scared to- you were never sure which way to go ) so he poured alcohol on it before stitching it up himself, at home, after 20 shots of 'pain killer'. I think it was water-and the shots were watching me to see which of them hurt, too. There really were 30- that's not exaggerating. Like I said-sadist. He also used to poison me. That was fun. I never knew about it until I started throwing up, then he got to 'doctor me'. I'd have diahhrea until it was actually white in color-did not know that was possible-then he'd give me morphine, telling me this was some new method of treating diarhea.This went on for weeks sometimes. The good part was for some reason he didn't hit me when I was 'sick', so something was safe there. So anyway, this is kind of appaling in itself, speaking of the pain, dealing with docs, needles, being sick-bleahhh. Years of this, then years of the stalking, the kidnapping, the travel through the court system. It's an awfully, awfully long story and boy, some of it I do not remember well, some is still clear, as Deb once wrote, when you put your teeth in the glass at night. I HATE painkillers since they're morphine. I've alluded to this, too, here but not really why. Well that's the hell why. I need them now so... yea.
Honesty? There's some. I need to share more with my husband. He knows some. I told the last ex some, too and he just dragged it through court, publically, to make me into a big old Kook who can't raise a child.This is not an excuse, to be sure, with Dave, as fine a man as God ever created. I do not feel I deserve him. And there's the dam loop again, but at least have gotten through some of this, here, because of you people so Thank You. Like for real.
I don't know what else to say- seems there must be something better than Thank You.
Anni
This is kind of an awful discussion for me, but wonderful to watch. I'm doing it in the same way I remember watching 'Jaws', in the movies when it came out, between my fingers, sort of. Iams NO- your compassion is real, of course, you just do not feel worthy enough as a person to acknowledge the fine-ness of yourself as the person who would feel this way so need to kind of be able to explain the whole thing in a way which shows you in a negative light. It's real- not the warped way your head insists on interpreting things. I also wish you'd re-write your profile post. I don't mean to be pushy but it's not a great interpretation of your marraige, really, you know? One might, at a push, be able to stick that in there as an element whcih could be interpreted as having happened along the way as a result of events but you make it look like you've lain down in a ditch and pulled all the mud on top of yourself. We just haveeee to stop kicking ourselves, and this fastening on to the best possible way to kick ourselves has got to stop. I'm talking about me, to, no fear. Our dog had an unsuccessful conversation with skunk last night while I was out. When I got home my husband was looking GRIM ( as well he might- the house reeked,the dam dog had managed to rub eau de skunk on carpets and furniture before caught and he was frazzled ) and all I could think of was why he might be mad at ME. I had a good dam shot at trying to figure it out, too, why this random thing would be my fault- a skunk taking a short-cut across our yard! I genuinely thought of this discussion, too, and Deb saying we were all in the same place at the same time. I'd logged in as a guest and seen that, but in the evening do not have the mental resources to reply at the moment.( I do not really at 4 am, either, but it's a tad better than later on ). So I stood in front of the poor frazzled man and SAID I thought it was my fault. You could see he'd rather I really DID take my clothes off-you should have seen the puzzled bubble over his head, poor guy. I just said well, you know I always think everything is my fault and he just laughed and let me put my clothes back on. Not much, by way of revealing conversations but we both 'got it', and there will be more, having got that far.
Seedling made and awfully good point. She does that sort of thing, as does Junebug. I'll do one of these TOMES and one of them will leave a sentence or two and I'll think well, there's the whole thing in 20-words-or-less. What she said about putting so much out, and then not getting appreciated-boy does THAT set off the whole self worth dynamic. You know you've been more than genuine, actually, truly kind and well intentioned. It just plain feels like crap to not be validated which then makes one start spinning that stupid 'what do I know, I suck anyway' loop.
It's beyond frustrating to be this far 'in' to the whole PTSD journey and only have come/ventured/crawled SO far, Whomever I am is merely a reflection in other's eyes at the moment because I do not know that person-refuse to own all of her out of self dislike. I'll take the bad stuff, happily, apparently since it's what I know. Yes, I DO need to write more of those years. I'm NOT making excuses at this point for not. It's a little impossible at the moment. Here's naked. I'm in appaling pain until a ruptured cervical disc is fixed-this is why I'm up at all hours of the day and night.I've alluded to this but never said it. It's appaling and unspeakable and part of me feels underserving to even say that much, so that's the contained version. This of course makes all the other dreck much, much tougher to corral. This is 'whining'. you see. I lived with a sadist. He was a trauma surgeon who rather enjoyed pain and at he same time disallowed it. The abuse wasn't sexual. He just liked all forms of other pain, and if you did not he'd make sure he amped it up until you stopped minding so loudly. If he poked you in both eyes, and laughed while you couldn't see, he'd then crush your foot to see if that hurt more. If it did not, then he'd get mad, like for real and the fun would start. He once got angry because I cut my hand open while washing an oyster-opener. I didnt react enough ( I was scared to- you were never sure which way to go ) so he poured alcohol on it before stitching it up himself, at home, after 20 shots of 'pain killer'. I think it was water-and the shots were watching me to see which of them hurt, too. There really were 30- that's not exaggerating. Like I said-sadist. He also used to poison me. That was fun. I never knew about it until I started throwing up, then he got to 'doctor me'. I'd have diahhrea until it was actually white in color-did not know that was possible-then he'd give me morphine, telling me this was some new method of treating diarhea.This went on for weeks sometimes. The good part was for some reason he didn't hit me when I was 'sick', so something was safe there. So anyway, this is kind of appaling in itself, speaking of the pain, dealing with docs, needles, being sick-bleahhh. Years of this, then years of the stalking, the kidnapping, the travel through the court system. It's an awfully, awfully long story and boy, some of it I do not remember well, some is still clear, as Deb once wrote, when you put your teeth in the glass at night. I HATE painkillers since they're morphine. I've alluded to this, too, here but not really why. Well that's the hell why. I need them now so... yea.
Honesty? There's some. I need to share more with my husband. He knows some. I told the last ex some, too and he just dragged it through court, publically, to make me into a big old Kook who can't raise a child.This is not an excuse, to be sure, with Dave, as fine a man as God ever created. I do not feel I deserve him. And there's the dam loop again, but at least have gotten through some of this, here, because of you people so Thank You. Like for real.
I don't know what else to say- seems there must be something better than Thank You.
Anni
Dear anni,
I am so sorry about the pain you are in and the terrible connotations and triggers feeling and adressing it brings about. I don't know what to say in the face of the unspeakable horror you experienced except that it is over, and a testimony to you of the kindness and compassion for others you retained even after all that- that says everything and I hope you never forget to remember that and apply it to yourself. I would go easy on yourself as anyone who has had such experiences is bound to 'react first; try to analyze their reactions later' ( even without ptsd). Thank God after that you and your husband found each other and you have an appropriate person and environment wherein you can feel safe and be loved and valued. WHICH YOU ALSO MOST CERTAINLY DESERVE. Sounds to me like that is the one 'up-side' of what you suffered, though I wish there had been a much easier way to have gotten there. I guess we can't change our past, and we can only reduce reacting to it and re-living it to the best of our ability and with lots of work, but that horror is over and it's only fair if for nothing else for yourself and your husband to live in the present moments of peace and security and love. He deserves it, and you deserve it. If you 'can't' do it for yourself yet or times when it is difficult try for him- take his words and actions for it as 'evidence'. I don't think there's anything wrong in trusting in vicarious courage or hope or peace when our fears or experiences or intrusive thoughts and reminders leave us unassured of it on our own.
I heard on the weekend that while 'staying in the present moment we should only (also) recall the worries that exist at that moment- not ones from even a few hours past but just right in the present moment (that second)'. May those be few and far between for you and your husband and may every new minute and day be only a reminder of what a sweet person you are, how things are so different, how the present is safe and how it and the future can be opportunities to love/ be loved, to live and enjoy life.
So much for a few lines.., lol
And am sure it's not 'funny'- but may all our very-worst problems be due to wayward-skunks and over-curious pets, lol.
-Hugs to you, as always
I am so sorry about the pain you are in and the terrible connotations and triggers feeling and adressing it brings about. I don't know what to say in the face of the unspeakable horror you experienced except that it is over, and a testimony to you of the kindness and compassion for others you retained even after all that- that says everything and I hope you never forget to remember that and apply it to yourself. I would go easy on yourself as anyone who has had such experiences is bound to 'react first; try to analyze their reactions later' ( even without ptsd). Thank God after that you and your husband found each other and you have an appropriate person and environment wherein you can feel safe and be loved and valued. WHICH YOU ALSO MOST CERTAINLY DESERVE. Sounds to me like that is the one 'up-side' of what you suffered, though I wish there had been a much easier way to have gotten there. I guess we can't change our past, and we can only reduce reacting to it and re-living it to the best of our ability and with lots of work, but that horror is over and it's only fair if for nothing else for yourself and your husband to live in the present moments of peace and security and love. He deserves it, and you deserve it. If you 'can't' do it for yourself yet or times when it is difficult try for him- take his words and actions for it as 'evidence'. I don't think there's anything wrong in trusting in vicarious courage or hope or peace when our fears or experiences or intrusive thoughts and reminders leave us unassured of it on our own.
I heard on the weekend that while 'staying in the present moment we should only (also) recall the worries that exist at that moment- not ones from even a few hours past but just right in the present moment (that second)'. May those be few and far between for you and your husband and may every new minute and day be only a reminder of what a sweet person you are, how things are so different, how the present is safe and how it and the future can be opportunities to love/ be loved, to live and enjoy life.
So much for a few lines.., lol
And am sure it's not 'funny'- but may all our very-worst problems be due to wayward-skunks and over-curious pets, lol.
-Hugs to you, as always
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intothelight
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This thread has taken on such a healing aspect, that I cannot even begin to put it all into words. So many fantastic insights for you all. So if I missed something, it is strictly and oversight and not meant to be a slight. (Something else I do, worry a lot about possibly hurting others. Can be very crippling.)
Iam, your statement:
That is so true, the measurement of self-worth by "doing" and not "being". I think this gets to be "hard-wired" from trying to constantly "please" people who abuse us in childhood. I nick-named it the "syndrome of never-good-enough". It is hard to find intrinsic value in just "being" who we are. One thing that come to mind is you are not working right now. For me, so much of my self-worth is tied up in work. It was the first place that I learned "acceptance" and received validation for my efforts. It defines so much of who I am, that if I was not working, I would be stripped of that definition and feeling very lost. Please do not think I am trying to make assumptions about you personally. It is just food for thought, and many times some of the obvious things are overlooked by T's. It is a good idea to take time off, but it can also be a huge stressor when a major definition is gone. Can make one feel even more lost.
Junebug, your statement:
That is so true about Anni, and it is true about Iam and YOU! Don't "forget" to see it in yourself. It is so strange how we can see the good in others, but then not even recognize it in ourselves.
Anni,
Your entire post is truth. I am still laughing about the skunk story, but I also see myself trying to figure out "what I did wrong", that allowed the skunk to be a skunk and a dog to be a dog. Another thought also came to mind when I was reading your post, the role of "protector". In an abusive situation, we learn to "protect" the people we love: children, siblings, friends, etc. I know that I took a lot of the abuse so my sister wouldn't be subjected to it and I spent almost two decades running interference to keep the Psycho from hurting the kids. I still cannot STAND to see anyone I love unhappy or distressed. I so want to protect them from anything bad, even a stinky house and dog (LOL). Is it sometimes the worry that if we fail to protect, then they will be mad, and not love us any more? Funny thing is, they don't expect that, we expect it from ourselves. From the time I get up in the morning, until I go to bed, I set myself up to fail. Not anyone else, just me.
OK, its cold out, so the clothes have to go back on. Enough thoughts to keep my brain working this over for days!
Everyone, thank you for your input, AND PLEASE DON'T STOP! I think this sight, gives us more insight than hours of therapy or group sessions.
Debbie
Iam, your statement:
That is so true, the measurement of self-worth by "doing" and not "being". I think this gets to be "hard-wired" from trying to constantly "please" people who abuse us in childhood. I nick-named it the "syndrome of never-good-enough". It is hard to find intrinsic value in just "being" who we are. One thing that come to mind is you are not working right now. For me, so much of my self-worth is tied up in work. It was the first place that I learned "acceptance" and received validation for my efforts. It defines so much of who I am, that if I was not working, I would be stripped of that definition and feeling very lost. Please do not think I am trying to make assumptions about you personally. It is just food for thought, and many times some of the obvious things are overlooked by T's. It is a good idea to take time off, but it can also be a huge stressor when a major definition is gone. Can make one feel even more lost.
Junebug, your statement:
That is so true about Anni, and it is true about Iam and YOU! Don't "forget" to see it in yourself. It is so strange how we can see the good in others, but then not even recognize it in ourselves.
Anni,
Your entire post is truth. I am still laughing about the skunk story, but I also see myself trying to figure out "what I did wrong", that allowed the skunk to be a skunk and a dog to be a dog. Another thought also came to mind when I was reading your post, the role of "protector". In an abusive situation, we learn to "protect" the people we love: children, siblings, friends, etc. I know that I took a lot of the abuse so my sister wouldn't be subjected to it and I spent almost two decades running interference to keep the Psycho from hurting the kids. I still cannot STAND to see anyone I love unhappy or distressed. I so want to protect them from anything bad, even a stinky house and dog (LOL). Is it sometimes the worry that if we fail to protect, then they will be mad, and not love us any more? Funny thing is, they don't expect that, we expect it from ourselves. From the time I get up in the morning, until I go to bed, I set myself up to fail. Not anyone else, just me.
OK, its cold out, so the clothes have to go back on. Enough thoughts to keep my brain working this over for days!
Everyone, thank you for your input, AND PLEASE DON'T STOP! I think this sight, gives us more insight than hours of therapy or group sessions.
Debbie
Dear Debbie,
Everything you said, from finding identity in work and value in 'doing' as opposed to 'being', and the role of 'protector' (I too absolutely CANNOT STAND seeing people unhappy or distressed, but THAT never ever occurred to me as to possibly 'why').
You are so kind in your words, and I thank you for that, but also it is your own example of courage that helps me to have some, also. -Thank you!
-Hugs- :)
Meg
Everything you said, from finding identity in work and value in 'doing' as opposed to 'being', and the role of 'protector' (I too absolutely CANNOT STAND seeing people unhappy or distressed, but THAT never ever occurred to me as to possibly 'why').
You are so kind in your words, and I thank you for that, but also it is your own example of courage that helps me to have some, also. -Thank you!
-Hugs- :)
Meg
That was so lovely beyond words Junebug-and typical if I may say so. Good God it's tough to go back there, but Good GOOD God to be able to do so from this vantage point isn't something I could have envisaged - ever ever ever. 'Vicarious courage'. That's good. Dave does that. It's wierd. I can't make the connection between the person who had that big fat puffed up hand from all those shots-all badly stitched, too. I remember I had to admire how well he'd stitched it- he prided himself on not leaving a scar, in surgery so it was a big deal to him. Didn't he do well, and wait until I saw how minimal the scar was. It's someones ELSE, the person who had to admire the stitches-hard to explain, but I can get closer to making the connection because my husband is so tough, if that makes any sense.Dave is so SAFE. It's safe HERE. So I'm safe now, no need to not address this. I can't quite, at the moment, but having honestly figured out it wasn't my fault- I KNOW this now, gosh, it's easier. There will be some, and quite a bit T things to get into after the other pain goes away. Have to figure out how much containment is getting through until then and how much is ignoring the past. I quite simply cannot differentiate at the moment. At any rate, I should have known this would be the reaction should I have written this sooner. Self-worth precluded it, not some wierd sense of not wishing to share. It's always, always behind any reticence on my part to 'share', in point of fact. There's a lot, I know. This one got pulled out of the memory banks from that other person I can't connect with because of it's current relevence, I'm sure.
Skunks have to be funny or they'd be called something else.Our big floppy dog is dimmer than the average big floppy dog-legendarily so, so we're just really, really lucky he did not strike up a conversation with a porcupine.
Thank you Junebug- again. Muchly so. Hugs and more because it's tough to express how much I appreciate this.
Skunks have to be funny or they'd be called something else.Our big floppy dog is dimmer than the average big floppy dog-legendarily so, so we're just really, really lucky he did not strike up a conversation with a porcupine.
Thank you Junebug- again. Muchly so. Hugs and more because it's tough to express how much I appreciate this.
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