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Information Required On CPNs

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mightsurvive

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Hiya

I have a couple of questions about CPNs (County Psychiatric Nurses) in the UK. I'm sure that this thread will also be useful to those in the US or other areas of the world so please dont feel you shouldnt post if you have knowledge about how they work in different countries from the UK.

I have my first appointment with a CPN in just over a week and have some questions and concerns as follows:

1) What does a CPN do? Meds? Counselling? Refer to a psychiatrist / Counsellor / Psychologist?

2) Are they qualified to diagnose PTSD or other things?

3) What happens to our records? Can present or future employers request them? I'm concerned that seing a CPN might affect my future and that I may one day experience discrimination if anyone finds out I have been refered to a mental health team. But on the other hand I know I need the help.

4) I have been told you only get 6 sessions with the NHS CPN and I'm pretty certain (understatement) that wont be enough. Does anyone know if that is always the case? If it is the case how does anyone with PTSD get long term help, especially without totally bankrupting themselves? Not sure I can cope with having help ripped away from me after six sessions. How are you meant to build a trusting relationship in that amount of time as well as heal enough to turn your life around?

Anyway, any comments, experiences or advice greatfully received.

Take care all
 
hi mightsurvive......

when i first saw my cpn it was for at least 7 months,no one asked me to stop or start paying........... he was brilliant I dont think they are qualified to diagnose PTSD, but they certainly have a lot of knowledge regarding the subject.My cpn would ask me lots of different things but not make judgement or pressure me,he was always very good ,hope this may help you

cas
 
hiya

Thanks so very much for your post. That is so good to know. I'll take all the help I can get but 6 sessions did seem a bit pointless. Maybe she can refer me to get a diagnosis too. We'll see.

I'm glad you found your cpn so helpful and not judgemental. That is so important in healing in my opinion. Its great to hear that they didnt pressure you too - helps not to feel like you have to say things you dont want to or arent yet ready to.

Thank you ever so much for clearing that up for me cas. It really does give me more confidence about going.

Take very care of yourself
 
Hi MS...

1) What does a CPN do? Meds? Counselling? Refer to a psychiatrist / Counsellor / Psychologist?
A CPN is a Community Psychiatric Nurse (never heard of county, but perhaps that's the term where you are?) who is basically like a nurse on a hospital ward, except it is for mental health issues and working within the community (though they do work on inpatient wards also). Like all nurses, they are not qualified to diagnose, however they can give drugs. I'm not sure about prescribing... I don't think so though. Only a psychiatrist can diagnose PTSD. Not even a GP can diagnose PTSD, as it is considered outside their remit of their knowledge (unless they are specialised), however GP's can prescribe drugs for PTSD up until a point.

I understand your worries about your records... I have the same worries. However, you're EMPOLOYERS can NOT see your medical records. The occupational health department of your place of work can, however. Discrimination is against the law, and whilst it does happen (as all crimes do) it shouldn't and usually isn't soemthign that happens. Occupational psychologists/psychiatrists or workers could be sued for that and so they usually are very careful. Of course it happens, but you have rights should that ever happen. Will it affect your career? It shouldn't, but it depends on the job you are going for. Like me, I will be working in psychology next year as a Psychology Assistant, and after that I want to go onto a Doctorate course to qualify as a Clinical Psychologist... to get on that course I will have to be assessed by Occupational Health to see if I am fit and meet all the requirements to be deemed fit in order to train and work as a psychologist. It shouldn't affect me as far as I can see and I have spoken to people about this (it is stricter for people wanting to work in medical fields). For you, occupational health will want to assess if you are capable and fit to do your job, and how they can accommodate that. There are some jobs, however, where you won't get a job if you are unfit though this is usually in terms of medical fields. For example, its like if you were on a drug that makes you drowsy and disallows you to drive, you probably wouldn't be able to do a job that involved driving... it's that sort of thing.

It is not always the case that you only get 6 sessions... though this is a general guideline these days so that the government keeps time and costs down per patient. If you are deemed to need more, you may get it... but you will have to make it clear that you want and need that. Unfortunately, the current state of the NHS is that you have to fight for services somewhat... almost compete. If you get a decent CPN, it shouldn't be a problem, but it does depend on your area, and the resources and budgets that they have as these differ per PCT. The kind of work a CPN might do with you is assessments, perhaps CBT and some counselling, a referral perhaps (probably) to a Psychiatrist, and various techniques to deal with anxiety and such issues. All is obviously important and valuable... but the likelihood is no, you probably won't 'be better' after 6 sessions. But this is something to discuss with the CPN... the good news is, once you're into the psychiatric services, you're in, and you can be referred and prioritised. Many are still waiting for the initial assessment.

If you've not been referred to psychiatry services before for PTSD issues, then this is how it will most likely go (and you should push for it if it doesn't look like it's going to, but it should go like this)...The chances are you've been referred to a CPN for initial assessments and treatment. The assessments involve them collating what sort of issues you have, what sort of needs you have, and what sort of severity it is at in terms of priority. When the CPN realises that this is likely to be PTSD (or is PTSD if you are aleady diagnosed), you will be referred to a psychiatrist if you don't have one. Your medication will be reviewed, and may be changed or have some added to it. You will stay under the care of psychiatry services until you no longer need it which may be a while, and you'll have anything between weekly to 6 monthly reviews with this psychiatrists alongside anything else. The psychiatrist will also recognise that you need psychological help, and may leave you with the CPN to see how that goes... either the CPN sessions will be extended for more in depth treatment, or you will be referred onto a counsellor, or psychologist for psychological treatment alongside the psychiatric treatment.

My advice to you would be... be very honest, and explain all of your symptoms from the offset so that PTSD is recognised amongst them. Don't try to minimalise what you're going through (though don't exaggerate obviously) and don't try to hide anything... it won't help you or get you the help you need.

My personal experience of a CPN is when I was with the child services. I was referred to a CPN for treatment for self-harm. Unfortunately, I did all the wrong things, wasn't honest, hid things etc. and so PTSD wasn't detected and I was diagnosed with depression. The treatment (obviously) didn't work, I ended up referred to a psychiatrist as well as seeing the CPN, and eventually hospitalised. I got out of hospital and was referred to a psychotherapist. Again, throughout this whole time, I didn't make my symptoms aware to people, and in hospital I was simply misdiagnosed (though that was all one big tragic mess and not a place worthy of the money the government gives it). The hospital I was at didn't fully assess me, and went on the assessment the child psychiatrist had done (which didn't include any of my trauma's as I didn't tell him about them). They just played around with my SSRI's, and let me leave when I did my piece of acting.

So....honesty really is the best policy here. I wasted all those services I had in front of me. It is only NOW, at 22 (and I entered psychiatric services at 17, and left when I moved to uni. at 20), that I am recieving any kind of treatment for PTSD through the university.

Good luck! Don't worry... it's a good thing you are going to see the CPN, as from thereon you can get access to what you need.
 
Hi Lisa.
Although I didn't start this thread, I have been following it with interest, because I have my first appointment with a CPN on Thursday.

Thank you for taking the time to write such an informative reply. You've provided alot of useful information.

I am still quite worried about it, epsecially the honesty issue. I generally try to play things down, as I am afraid of being judged. However I know you are right in what you say, otherwise I wont get the treatment that I need.

Thanks for the info.

Might survive, I'll let you know how I get on at my appointment.
 
Glad if I've been any help :) Come back and let us know how it went with the CPN. I have a lot of experience with Community Mental Health Teams in relation to myself, and also my father, so I'll be interested to see how it goes...
 
Hiya Lisa

Thanks for getting back ot me on that. You really have cleared things up for me a lot so much appreciated. Its good to hear it from both sides: you have been there as a patient and also you are coming from the perspective of someone in the field.

Your post has brought up some other issues for me. It was great to hear what they are responsible for but if I am refered to a psychiatrist and she wants me to go on meds then can I be forced to take them? I am seeing the CPN at a centre in the city, not at home. Don't know if that makes a difference.

The job thing still worries me. I'm a teacher so it will be the government that will be the occupational health not my school I presume. That then means that if they think I should not be working they will take my job away and that I will never be able to work as a teacher again. Very scary thought. I presume that the government will be able to get hold of my records as they also run the NHS. I dont know. Maybe I'm just being paranoid....again.

Either way I know that I need the help regarless of whether I have carreer problems in the future or not. I already believe that a collegue at work was given more responsability and I was not in the running because of the problems I'm having even though I am more experienced. To be honest its probably for the best because I dont need more stress at work right now. So I'm not bitter, I just dont want to be passed up for future responsibilites forever. It just gets me that what happened to me is not just effecting me on a personal level but also in my career. Once I'm coping with this better I would love more responsibilty. We'll have to see.

I hear what you are saying about having to fight to get the help. Ive been fighting for 8 months to get to see a CPN while I believe that in other areas of the country it is much easier to get seen. I hate the postcode lottery. Dont get me wrong, I'm glad that people are getting seen much quicker but its frustrating to have to wait so long. And I know that many more are probably having to wait much longer than me. I'm only being seen this quickly because I've been on the case about it. Sometimes it feels like the NHS dont care what has happened to me or that its not really important. But hey, the main thing is I'm being seen in a week now.

I realise that I'm just going to have to make it very clear what I'm going through and how bad it can be. That might be hard if I'm feeling numb at the time. Sometimes words dont express how youre feeling and it has to be seen. I know thats been the case with my doctor. She says I'm doing well and then as soon as I get out of the doctors I'm a cowering mess. Maybe I should write down how this effects me before I go so that I dont leave anything out.

I dont think I'll tell the CPN that my psychologist thought I have PTSD as I dont want to put any ideas in her head or influence her like that. She will be able to see that the signs are there anyway if I tell her my symptoms.

It helps to hear what the procedure might be like. Less daunting maybe. So thank you. I'm so sorry that you didnt get the help you needed Lisa. But you are now so that makes me happy. Thanks ever so much for the warning about honesty. I'll do my best to not fall down that hole but you know what its like. Theres a couple of things that I dont think I can talk about because I'm scared of what will happen if i do but the rest should be enough to make it clear what my needs are.

Again, thanks for all the really useful information and experience you have posted. It means a lot

Take care
 
Hi MS...

No problems.

...if I am refered to a psychiatrist and she wants me to go on meds then can I be forced to take them?

No. The only way you can be forced into taking medication is if you are sectioned, and you can only be sectioned if you are deemed to be a threat to your life or someone else's (and trust me, it's actually quite difficult to get sectioned). I refused all medication, apart from when in hospital (had no choice) from my psychiatrist. Even though I repeatedly had appointments, I was off my medication the minute I left hospital, and the psychiatrist could not and did not force me. Don't worry about that. It's a good idea to have a discussion with your therapist about medication, ask them lots of questions, get your own info., and make YOUR OWN decision.

I am seeing the CPN at a centre in the city, not at home. Don't know if that makes a difference.

No. Home visits are usually only something that happens if the patient has mobility problems, or a crisis.

The job thing still worries me. I'm a teacher so it will be the government that will be the occupational health not my school I presume. That then means that if they think I should not be working they will take my job away and that I will never be able to work as a teacher again. Very scary thought. I presume that the government will be able to get hold of my records as they also run the NHS. I dont know. Maybe I'm just being paranoid....again.

No I can understand why you're thinking this, but this is not the case. As you are a teacher, I can tell you now I doubt very much that you will lose your job. The most that COULD happen is they may try to accommodate you which is a good thing. You already have the job, so you won't lose it... and unless you or someone raises concerns about your behaviour or PTSD (if they know of your issues) you won't even have to see occupational health. The government may provide the jobs... but it is the LEA that has the occupational health department, and like I said, if you're already in the job, and coping to a point that no one has raised concerns, you won't be invited to see occupational health. And if you were, you still wouldn't lose your job. It's very extreme to say someone is unfit to do a job... you'd have to be really not functioning for that, and even at that stage it would be sick leave... NOT sacking. Sorry if I worried you there!! Also... your CPN will only report to the professionals she is under, and may write to your GP. Your job or employer (or government) won't be involved in this process at all. So you've got issues, so you've got a life outside of work... everyone has and people aren't penalised for recieving treatment. So you can quit worrying about that :)

Either way I know that I need the help regarless of whether I have carreer problems in the future or not. I already believe that a collegue at work was given more responsability and I was not in the running because of the problems I'm having even though I am more experienced.

I don't know... but this may not be the case, and again, it shouldn't be. ONLY occupational health can determine if you are fit for a job, not your employers, so that really shouldn't come into the equation. If you got a new job, and they know of your issues, the chances are you wouldn't be referred to occupational health as you are already working for the school... but if you were... it would be after you got the job. You get a job based on your competence... the health stuff all comes after, just before everything is finalised in case any adjustments need to be made. That's my understanding of it anyway! I've never had to see occupational health. in fact, I've never made it aware to my employers of my issues (you don't HAVE to). I'll only do this with my doctoral course because its so important... so it's not as scary as you are thinking, trust me :) I only know a little about the process through asking people about what happens with me and my career, and what the process will be etc.

To be honest its probably for the best because I dont need more stress at work right now.
Good! But don't let it stop you applying for something if you feel capable of it. I don't think your employers are thinking "she isn't capable"... if they weren't sure in relation to your issues, you would be asked privately most likely... they're not against you mate.

So I'm not bitter, I just dont want to be passed up for future responsibilites forever. It just gets me that what happened to me is not just effecting me on a personal level but also in my career.
It doesn't have to affect your career... only what you choose to take up based on if you think you can handle it.

I hear what you are saying about having to fight to get the help. Ive been fighting for 8 months to get to see a CPN while I believe that in other areas of the country it is much easier to get seen. I hate the postcode lottery. Dont get me wrong, I'm glad that people are getting seen much quicker but its frustrating to have to wait so long. And I know that many more are probably having to wait much longer than me. I'm only being seen this quickly because I've been on the case about it. Sometimes it feels like the NHS dont care what has happened to me or that its not really important. But hey, the main thing is I'm being seen in a week now.
I totally sympathise. I've had many a battle for my father, and he is a paranoid schizophrenic... you wouldn't believe how hard it was to get him sectioned, because he has family who live with him (they assume that means he is safeguarded - their get out, if they have no beds). It all comes down to money. The NHS is having a lot of cuts at the moment, it's really unfortunate. But things are in place... so don't despair.

I realise that I'm just going to have to make it very clear what I'm going through and how bad it can be. That might be hard if I'm feeling numb at the time. Sometimes words dont express how youre feeling and it has to be seen. I know thats been the case with my doctor. She says I'm doing well and then as soon as I get out of the doctors I'm a cowering mess. Maybe I should write down how this effects me before I go so that I dont leave anything out.
I think writing is a BRILLIANT idea. Do it.

I dont think I'll tell the CPN that my psychologist thought I have PTSD as I dont want to put any ideas in her head or influence her like that. She will be able to see that the signs are there anyway if I tell her my symptoms.
Yep good idea. I didn't tell my therapist, and he independently came up with it... it reassured me I wasn't diagnosing myself as it were.

It helps to hear what the procedure might be like. Less daunting maybe. So thank you. I'm so sorry that you didnt get the help you needed Lisa. But you are now so that makes me happy. Thanks ever so much for the warning about honesty. I'll do my best to not fall down that hole but you know what its like. Theres a couple of things that I dont think I can talk about because I'm scared of what will happen if i do but the rest should be enough to make it clear what my needs are.
I'm glad if I've helped at all :)... don't worry you don';t have to bare your soul as such in terms of details of anything... just make sure that like you said, they know of the symptoms and severity. In terms of actual talking about, dealing with etc... that can wait until you feel you trust your CPN a little better.

Thanks for your kind words about me not getting help, and being glad I'm getting it now. Likewise... but you know, it's all int he past, I'm more experienced now, and wiser, and older with the benefit of hindsight so I don't make the same mistakes again...:thumbs-up

Good luck!!!!
 
Just be honest and forthcoming...they are there to help. As a nurse she can't diagnose like a doctor does but she will have to form a nursing diagnosis. I am an RN and that is how we do it in canada..she can't prescribe meds but maybe will point you in the right direction. Her job will be to assess, plan, implement, evaluate and document. Honestly...don't hold back let her know exactly how this disorder is affecting you...most likely every aspect is involved. I wish you the best of luck.....take care.
Pand
 
Hi Mightsurvive,(and hello to the Forum - my first post!:hello:)

Just thought I might have something useful to contribute regarding metal health and employers in the UK. Basically, you should not have anything to worry about.

Employers have a duty of care and the way they operate is covered by anti-discriminatory legislation. It is now well recognised that it is common for people to experience mental health problems during their lifetime. It is well know that up to a third of people will experience clinically significant levels of anxiety or depression in any single year and also, as was recently reported in the press, 5 million people were prescribed anti depressants last year. The Sainsbury Centre for Mental Health have produced the most recent findings which suggest that mental health problems cost £25 billion in the UK each year. Employers have a Duty of Care and after a recent high cost ruling it was determined that employers who provide psychological support for their staff will be less at risk for damages if a claim is made against them. This has led to a huge increase in the the use of Employee Assistance Programmes and funding for in-house counselling services. The same thinking is behind Lord Layards proposals to increase access to psychological therapies, particularly for the unemployed and the government has put £180million into a number of pilot schemes to do this.

In terms of people applying for jobs the same anti-discriminatory principles apply and health problems (whether psychological of physical) should not generally be used against a person. The exceptions to this relate to potential risk rather than the presence, or history of, mental health problems. So, for instance, if someone has epilepsy that does not mean they should not be given a job, however, if the job includes operating heavy machinery or driving and there is a risk of a fit occurring then they may be deemed unsuitable for that job. In terms of mental health it is a similar issue. If someone were applying for a job with children, for instance, and there behaviour was assessed as posing a risk they may not get the job. In the UK this came to a head after Beverley Allitt, a nurse, was sent to Ramptom Hospital after murdering several patients. Its a bit of common sense really, if people are found to pose a risk then they should not be offered jobs in trusted positions which involve caring or working directly with others.

In terms of medical records the situation is not as straight forward as people often think. There is no such thing as absolute confidentiality as records have to be disclosed if a professional believes others, particularly children, might be at risk in someway. People may also consent to their records being disclosed and not always be that aware, or remember they have given consent. If are in receipt of benefits you will probably have signed a form at some point giving the Department of Works and Pensions (DSS as was) the right to seek additional information from your doctor or any other health professional involved in your care - this consent may be used years later! The is a big issue at the moment about the security of, and access to, medical records being placed on a single nationwide database and many people are writing to their GP's opting out of the system before it is even up and running.

Future employers will probably send a medical questionnaire out which will include asking for permission to contact your doctor, this can stay on your records and be used at a later time if they wish.

You also have a right of access to your records and may wish to see what is in them. Health records cannot be changed or deleted but you can always add information into them if you feel anything needs to be explained or corrected.

In general, the tide is turning and the stigma of seeing mental health professionals is being replaced with a greater understanding and acceptance of the ways in which we can all be affected by stress and trauma in our lives. Much of this has come about because of the increased recognition of PTSD and the way it has had such an impact on so many peoples lives.

Hope this helps.

Richard
 
Hello Richard!

:hello: Hello friend! Good to see you posting! (Richard is my very good friend and is the only person off this forum who knows about my PTSD and supports me with it... I keep telling him to join the carer's section!)

What is the Sainsbury Centre for Mental Health? I've never heard of it before...

Employers have a Duty of Care and after a recent high cost ruling it was determined that employers who provide psychological support for their staff will be less at risk for damages if a claim is made against them. This has led to a huge increase in the the use of Employee Assistance Programmes and funding for in-house counselling services.

Yes... out of interest, is this what Occupational Health is about? Aiding employers rather than discriminating against them by refusing a job so they are not prosecuted and/or sued?

With medical records... what does this mean in terms of Occupational Health? If you refused to sign the form for giving them access to them, could this result in not getting a job?

:thumbs-up Thanks for the info... !

PS. Also, since you have so much knowledge around UK Mental Health Procedures, perhaps you could make a post about how to go about getting help for PTSD, and what the procedures SHOULD be, for those in the UK struggling to get the help they need, deserve and pay for through taxes? Maybe something for those looking for help in the NHS, and those who can afford to look in the private sector also (about how to go about looking for the right help depending on what they are looking for help with specifically)?
 
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