Irresponsible Behaviour on The Forum.

[Seeking_Nirvana]

I am not defending Anthony but I have to say he did the right thing based on my feelings about the subject. I don’t have the guts to do what he did, even though I felt it needed to be done. He warned her about the suicide feelings and how things would get worse before better.

I had a similar thing happen to me when I started healing. I had a friend who once was a psychiatrist, but had to quit do to his disability. He did the same thing to me that Anthony did to Cyper, but he was 10 times harsher. He first warned me that I would get worse before I got better and I would hit rock bottom. But in the long run I would be healthier.

He used the same methods Anthony uses here. I did hit rock bottom, but I’m much healthier now and I thank him on a regular basis for helping me to heal quicker. He tells me it was my own doing that healed me, because I was brave enough to stick with it. Every time I would back slide he would tell me off and never beat around the bush with sugar coating my need to be stuck in the symptoms of PTSD.

Without his help in pushing me I probably would still be struggling just as much as I was when I first met him. People tried to warn me not to listen to him but I felt that his approach was right FOR ME so I stuck it out. I have seen MANY therapists throughout my life and I never stuck it out with any of them except one. There is a reason why I would not stay with therapists, and that is because they didn’t challenge me.

If a person is not ready to heal or not being challenged they will leave and come back when they are ready.

I understand spirits concerns because I worry about hurting people by telling them the truth. But I also feel through my own experience that tough love is the best way (For Me) and that is why I didn’t leave the forum the first time I had a confrontation with some one. This work only makes a person stronger and able to stand their ground in life.

These are my opinions based on my own experience.

Peace
Tammy

 

[Shoshin]

Anthony,

Do you really think that therapy training entails "writing essays on [readings] and conforming to some professor's own personal style"? You seem to have some issues with academia. Your minimizing professional training sounds defensive and dismissive. The angry tone of the rest of your post to Spiritofnow comes across to me as overcompensation.

You seem to see yourself as uniquely qualified (self-ordained, I guess) to counsel someone without having received formal training (your own claim) which in my estimation falls into the realm of unethical behavior, and hiding behind your "legal disclaimer" does not protect you from that. It's like someone saying "I take pills, so I am qualified to be a pharmacist."

Your intentions are good. I get that. This forum is useful for many. I get that too, but your language goes beyond assertive. Sometimes it is just mean and abusive.

You write to Spiritofnow, "but seen as though your becoming a therapist, you obviously want money for it... am I wrong?". Is that some kind of jab at her motivation? Is it meant to diminish the point she made about whether an untrained person should behave as if he were a qualified therapist? This is a red herring, Anthony, not a valid argument.

Perhaps more revealing is your admonishment that she "piss off and go elsewhere". Does your vast experience and voluminous, erudite reading tell you that this is the right way to respond to a deep concern?

But you do not stop there. You taunt her, saying "Remember, you did say you wouldn't be back to support your argument... lets see if you keep to your word or not!!!". This is just puerile.

But you go on to undo your own claims. You say "I am extremely confident in myself, in my abilities, I acknowledge and accept my limits also.... I certainly don't just run off half arsed."

But you do go off half-assed when you presume to now another's motivation and level of experience, which you clearly do toward the end of your post, writing "If your here to piss me off, to piss the community off with your one sided newly found knowledge with absolute zero life experience.... don't bother please."

I have benefited from this venue, and I am grateful to all who have taken the time to respond to my own posts so thoughtfully. I am grateful too for all the work you do, Anthony, to operate this forum.

I am going to move on, though. Or should I say "piss off" before you can tell me to?

Cya.:hello:

 

[Roo]

For all of us

I've been reading this thread and thinking about language and communication...and how our messages to each other appear to the eyes that read them.

To sit in front of a screen and read the words that someone has written to you...is through a one-dimensional medium. The person who sends us a message is not sitting with us; we cannot see, hear, smell, or touch one another; we cannot fully perceive and interpret each other's messages.

Why? Because in human communication, only 7% of a message is the in words themselves -- the verbal; the content. The "meat" of a message -- its meaning as the writer intends it -- is in everything else that we cannot sense while communicating through this one-dimensional medium.

If we are talking on the phone, we are able to gather more information as we talk with another. Approximately 33% -- one third -- of a full message comes through in the voice: volume, intonation, pitch, emotional inflection, accent, etc. If we hear someone cough over the phone, that's another piece of the message -- and each person will respond differently to that. One might immediately ask, "Hey hon...have you got a cold?" Another might start to commiserate 'cause he's got a cold too. Another might stay silent, feeling sad, knowing that the person on the other end of the line is a loved one who is dying of lung disease. Another might keep talking through the coughs. Still another might say, "Jeez, Hank, are you still smoking?!"

The "whole picture" of a message is only available to us when we're physically with the person(s) we're communicating with. Fully 60% of a message's meaning is in what a person's body does while one is speaking -- all the non-verbal signals: gesture, expression, eye contact, movement, proximity (closeness), alertness, sweating, twitches, etc. The senses of touch and smell come into play as well. We are able to see what stands out -- signs of injury or illness; skin and garment colour; jewelry; age; size, eye movement; posture, etc. Our senses have full information, and we are more likely to understand (or come to understand) what another intends and means in his use of words. The words themselves are contained in a context that helps us make sense of them in a way we cannot through a screen.

There are so many facets to communication -- and much of the time we're not consciously aware of what's going on. So much happens under the surface and "between the lines."

But if we're sitting in front of a screen, tapping keys, we are not getting a complete message, and it's good to be mindful of that when we start to reply. All we have to work with are the words themselves, and every word means something different to every person.

The more perceptual information we give and receive during a communication = the more likely we are to understand each other, or to work towards understanding. We are less likely to argue; we have much more information to work with, and we can check things out with each other -- like assumptions.

When we read words on a screen, we have incomplete information. It is so easy to misinterpret another's intent and meaning, to react to it, and hit the SEND button.

If I write, "I'm feeling great today!", every other person who reads the words will perceive them differently. They're only getting letters on a screen. "I'm feeling great today!" is either true (the words are congruent with the rest of the message), partially true (I might be feeling so-so, but don't want to get into that, so I sort of fake it), or not (I feel like shit and am lying through my teeth -- or my fingers, if I'm typing). You, the reader, will see "I'm feeling great today" and react only to the written words. Everything else is assumption, unless you check it out.

I think long and carefully while writing online, and I edit as I go. I am very sensitive to language -- its meaning, especially -- and I know (too well :wall:) about how we can set off conflict by how we use our words.

...So this kind of thinking is my response to threads we've all read that convey strong feelings, beliefs, opinions, and choices.

Remember, while reading...that you aren't getting most of the message -- and that is no one's fault. Stay mindful of this one-dimensional medium that allows us to connect with each other with such ease...and be mindful, too, of how you write what you want to express.

 

[anthony]

Hi Shoshin,

I understand what you could interpret, but that is not my generalization here. I am not generalizing about therapists, I am making a specific point to the one member who made a statement that suddenly now they are qualifying as a therapist, everything done here is suddenly wrong. I read that statements immediately as; what the hell would you know what your doing as I am more qualified than you! Well, yes... spirit would be more qualified than me, cannot disagree with that. I do not hide behind not being qualified either... though it does provide some work arounds legally, ask any barrister on that one.

Spirit is suddenly changing her attitude. She has nearly 500 posts and just now nearing the end of her training she decides that everything I do here is wrong. I don't think so. Again, the ACPMH has suddenly adopted fear based trauma and exposure therapy as the first and foremost line of attack towards a sufferer of PTSD or ASD. Why? Because it is proving to be the most valuable, reliable and workable treatment method in helping those who suffer that. I and others here are walking proof of that. I have over 50 soldiers here in Australia who I have dealt with who all succeeded under the exact same technique. Professionals are adopting this towards such trauma based approaches, instead of the conventional sympathetic viewpoint that therapists often provide. The nurturing approach that works on families, individual self counselling, etc.... just doesn't work in trauma therapy. It is now becoming proven fact, with sufferers of PTSD and ASD spending a decade or more in therapy, when therapy should last no longer than 12 months, maximum time frame.

Whilst not blaming therapists for not understanding PTSD itself, because they simply couldn't unless they suffer it, their approach is now being proven as wrong with trauma, and now having to shift towards fear based trauma therapy and fear based exposure therapy, to really push a sufferer out of the mould they have fit within.

Therapist are required globally, I do not discount them for what they do... but I will say and have always stated, they are wrong when it comes to dealing with abnormal trauma, trauma in general. My own knowledge and findings are now becoming known and used in the mental health realms. Whether they got it from online communities such as this, trials and experience, doesn't matter... what matters is that therapists and physicians have been approaching it all wrong. Change is now on its way.

Any education within an academic model is floored... I challenge anyone to prove it wrong. Even doctors... they are taught are basic method, though they learn the more realistic and productive methods of doctoring through experience on the job, not through essays or what the professors personal opinions are on the topic.

Anyone who educates is smart in my mind... I educate myself constantly... it only improves who I am. Schooling though, lets face it, it is one sided. Schooling offers the ability to debate a topic, though end of the day it comes down to the teacher, how broad or narrow focused they are on any given subject. End result... they are the one's who pass or fail you, so you conform to what they want in order to qualify. That is my standing on schooling itself. Education is required... the more you educate yourself the better, which encompasses theory and practice, not just one or the other.

It is like a builder vs. engineer. Engineers understand the mechanics, theories and principles behind what makes a building stand, last during storms and what ever else mother nature has to throw its way; though the engineer if asked to go build the building with their hands, would have no idea. Vice versa, the builder can build and follow the engineers principles, though has no real idea on why some things are as they are... they just follow the plans. If asked to design a building then build it, the builders building would likely fall down because they would have missed a specific theoretical aspect of physics or the like that helps the building stand stable.

Both are required.... one or the other leaves a person quite inexperienced in a given subject in realistic terms. This is why projects work in teams, because one person cannot do everything... well aware and understand this principle. This is why I stay to trauma.... I have learnt extreme amounts of theory behind trauma, principles and techniques, though have the direct experience by having it and having tested the very principles that professionals are now adopting themselves... because they work.

Again, nothing against academia... just making a statement about how one member wanted to hide behind it as a sudden change in their own personal attitude.

 

[Cindy]

Reluctant to Respond to Conflict.

I'm not getting into this debate over this situation.

Recently I had a discussion with a professional in our State Education Department and shared my feelings of training of new teachers and its lacking realism. As you said anthony and I said to her. Education of theoretical practice is important but reality application of theory to the real process of teaching is not happening. There is limited transfer of knowledge to its application in the real world.

There we agree.

Now, I wish to share a concern I have about all these confrontations that have been cropping up recently. I purposefully do not participate to egg it on any further. I respect people have their differences of opinion and let it go. Sometimes it's better to agree to disagree and walk away.

I wonder what new members think of these postings?

What is triggering everyone to attack one another?

I don't think a full moon lasts 6 weeks. I also don't get the venting that keeps centering on a few individuals.

All I can see with regards to me, it makes me uncomfortable and careful to what I respond to and choose to read.

Just sharing my personal feelings and perspective - NO OFFENSE MEANT TO ANYONE.

 

[spiritofnow]

Firstly, the sudden change of heart concerning the forum was because, I was not aware that you put yourself in the position of a therapist and practised medical interventions. That is of course until I read what you were doing with Cypher.

Secondly, this finding was and is the fundamental reason for posting the thread, but not just for leaving. I was already feeling it was time to move on. The forum was a resource to stretch and challenge some of my dysfunctional thinking brought about by my faulty ‘rules for living’ due to my traumas’. I do not wish to use the forum as another crutch that disables me from living as I wish. Therefore, I would have already left, but this was hastened by my concerns over what you were practising.

Thirdly, I have absolutely no problem with tough love, digging deep and pulling out your demons, unravelling all of the dynamics of trauma to unearth the truths of those experiences. This is exactly what I do every week in therapy. I set the standard each week and I face my demons, explore them and then come home and consolidate what I have learned so that I can integrate healthier patterns of behaviour. I initiated my healing; I requested therapy because I knew that I had come to a place in my life that was just repeating old behaviours that were making me unhappy. I give myself tough love! I push myself as hard as I possibly can, because I will not endure years of therapy just to carry on living as I have.

My fourth point, my T and her approach is working. She studied the theory and gained her experience through practise. She is a trauma expert, not a counsellor. She specialised in trauma therefore, her technique is appropriate. Her tools match my condition. Only she has more than a one-dimensional view of PTSD than you! She treats every patient holistically. She takes into consideration that each patient is an individual and requires individualised treatment, which negates your argument of one-model fits all. This will be the same route that I take. How I apply myself professionally and on a forum are two separate things. I do not believe that tough love and challenging people is always the right method. It goes back to individual differences again. For some it may and some it may not. You cannot assume that PTSD is all that you are treating. You are treating a 3dimensinal person and each one will present their symptoms uniquely.

I am still pissing off, for all of the reasons that I initially outlined. This thread has not been answered as I assumed it would not be. All it has been used for is to defend your position and diminish what I was concerned about; a layperson practising therapy on a vulnerable person. That should not of happened, no matter how much you proclaim you gave them options. You are still dealing with people who are vulnerable and who you KNOW all to well do not make sound choices because of their current PTSD symptoms. That is the abuse of power!

 

[anthony]

I believe your missing the point Vicky... I don't practice therapy on anyone here. I do not prey upon anyone either. I do not do any of the bullshit your stating or presuming I do. What I do here is help others come to terms with how to deal with their trauma, how to get beyond what the problems they have within their life. Therapy is failing them, hence why people look elsewhere. I do not tell anyone to not have therapy, in fact quite the opposite, in that people especially need a local therapist if I am pushing them with their trauma, for them to look really hard and find all the facts themselves, to learn how to process and analyze their problems. It works, that is a fact. As a therapist you are about to become, you're about to take a new learning discovering with change towards trauma based therapy, as the mental health field is moving towards exactly what I use to help people get through their problems. Me helping someone does not denote being in therapy with me.... far from it. I am simply helping them with one aspect of their life... their trauma and PTSD as a result of their trauma. The rest must be dealt with locally through a therapist.

It has been proven and legally found that therapy comes in many forms. Simply seeking the shoulder of a loved one or friend, partner even, is actually a form of therapy. People tried taking AA consortiums to court, because those who suffer alcoholism are giving advice to others from "their experience" and helping others get through it. They are not qualified anything, just people who endured, overcame and have experience with knowledge to help others. Court ruled in favour of the AA meetings being a legitimate form of therapy that did not require any formal training.

This is exactly how online communities such as this run, in that it is based on experience, not on professional qualification. We help one another with our experience learnt, both theoretical and practical.... no qualification needed. I think your stepping over the line and have confused your newly found qualification with real life practice and commonsense.

 

[Nicolette]

This site is starting to depress me with all the animosity and argumentation.

I used to enjoy coming here and reading whereas now I feel I have to prepare myself for a battle ground.

Bottom line is the forum is the way it is and Anthony will do as he sees fit as the owner. No amount of arguing will change that even though I do advocate a healthy debate - which this is not.

Really, as if we all don't have enough stress in our life to create more.

If you have an opinion on something feel free to share it but don't try and undo each other by trying to force your views and opinions down each others throats. That type of attitude only achieves this - a situation where people are attacking each other to get their point heard.

Personally, I think this whole thread is ridiculous. Vicky, if you don't like what Anthony is doing that is ok. Please go and find out what works for you but please don't condemn something that works well for others just because some theory told you what Anthony does wont work.

 

[sunnydaze]

Can't we all just get along? I voice no opinion on who is right or who is wrong. All, I know is a whole lot of people are trying to help each other in this forum,the best they know how. If it works what was lost?

If someone did not want to share their story they would not do it at least I wouldn't. I have not wrote abour 3/4 of the things I have been through and don't know if I will ever. Why, so someone can say I only care about myself and want to bohoo? I posted a poem on "do not judge" let's all read this and try again to be helpful which is the intent of this forum that Anthony started.
sunnydaze:stupid:

 

[cypher]

woweeee! This is quite the thread. Not the funnest to read. I feel particularly responsible for it. I am sorry for this. It was my decision to post and Anthony did warn me about how I would feel afterwards, etc.... He said it was up to me and I posted, was uneasy about it but noone pushed me into it. I was asked a question, put alot of thought into answering it, and replied. It was actually what my T and I were discussing (and still are) as to where the blame/fault/guilt falls. Thank you for the replies in that thread, it brings things up that have not been looked at yet. I thank all for the support. I left out alot of stuff as to not being comfortable at all posting those things, especially 1 thing I dont think I'll ever talk about. I'm really not quite sure what to say about this anymore. I'm sorry for this, and I hope things will calm down and loosen up, get back to helping each other (I know I'm quite new here and hav'nt helped anyone, but I hope someday to know the right words to say).

Everyone take care, I'm thinking tomorow will be a great day, how 'bout you?

 

[Nicolette]

I feel particularly responsible for it. I am sorry for this.

Cypher you are here trying to work through you trauma. Good on you I say. There is nothing in this thread which you should be sorry for let alone feel responsible.

Keep up the good work.

 

[anthony]

Cypher, absolutely not your fault for this thread. This is just the ramblings of one person who suddenly disagree's with my own methods... the very methods now being adopted within the mental health industry. Vicky is dismissing your input into the equation, being you where given all the options to not go into it, and you knew what would occur going into it... though you are proving once again, like everyone I deal with using these very methods, that they work on those who suffer trauma.

It is no different to helping someone with AA.... being another AA member who has passed the barriers becomes a sponsor to another, a person who once suffered exactly what they went through. This forum does exactly that, in that I share, others share, these exact methods and approaches to help push one another past the fear of facing our trauma, facing our reality of understanding, putting our lives back in perspective. Without this approach, we just become another person who sits in therapy for decades achieving little to nothing.

Again, not your fault, you are not responsible for this other members ramblings upon this forum. You are entitled to seek help, just like many others.... don't ever feel bad for what another views as a hinderance or disagreement in their own life. You make your decisions and your choices, believe in those choices and accept right or wrong, either way, learn from those choices you make. Your doing just fine as you have taken the push here into therapy for face to face discussion.... well done Cypher, keep up the great work and ignore members like this who want to bring you, me or others who want to beat the nonsense down to their shitty, depressive playing field.