Is It a Bad Idea to Date a Recovering Alcoholic?

[TLight]

Uplate;
I had the same experience with AA. I'm not an alcoholic, but attended anyway because it gave me a sense of belonging and it was a spiritual program. No one ever believed I was not an alcoholic, everyone did not believe in PTSD (whatever that means?) and there were several perpetrators and predators, very unethical humans around.
For a while it was nice, had somewhere to go where I knew I wasn't the only severly damaged one around.........but then, bad things and bad behaviors from people started occuring and a lot of secondary wounding.
I did date someone for two years...........he really showed his true colors eventually, one of the most self-centered, selfish humans I ever met. Very character flawed, although he hid it well. Last I knew, after lying to me and generally dragging me through the shits.........he was drinking again.

Good thing to be very cautious. I think of AA as a lot of sick people trying to help a lot of sick people...........very sick in the end.

 

[Deleted member 541]

TLight,

Your statement....... I think of AA as a lot of sick people trying to help a lot of sick people...........very sick in the end.

I hate to be the one to tell you this but......Isn't that the very thing that we do HERE!!!!!!!! We aren't the most healthy bunch of people on the planet, and neither are the ones in AA..... But here we are the sick people trying are hardest to help the sick people.......Sorry but I personally don't think that it's.....Very sick in the end......

 

[uplate]

Uplate;
No one ever believed I was not an alcoholic, everyone did not believe in PTSD (whatever that means?) and there were several perpetrators and predators, very unethical humans around.

Yeah, that's pretty close to what I found as well, occassionally I'd come across a good meeting or person but the program talk drove me up the wall. It didn't sound right to begin with but then people were trying to drum their version of it into me as well. Questioning pretty much anything I got patronising comments and more often quite venomous personal attacks and threats.

I wish I had a dollar for every time someone told me I was "in denial", "if you leave AA you'll die" "this is the only way" or "maybe you're constiutionally incapable of being honest with yourself". Well the only thing I was in denial about was that this thing was going to work, obviously I'm not dead, I did find another way inspite of just about everyone bolting or putting the boot in and I'm constiutionally incapable of lying to myself, saying what people want me to instead of what I really believe or repeatedly doing this :wall:, it wasn't just me who coped it either. Trying to crush someones spirit is a really nasty thing to do to another human being, I'd go so far as to say doing it negates their own human beingness and turns them into a lower lifeform somewhere beneath things with a spine, unfortunately the few who understood that were out numbered by the many who didn't, I think you'd have to be really lucky to find a meeting where this was reversed, you'd think covering a huge chunk of the city to get in enough meetings to meet the quota I would have come across at least one.

To top it off I had to leave people behind I met there who I liked, respected and had bonded with because there were too many reminders and I couldn't be around anyone who spoke in that language for some time without getting angry or falling apart. I found it very hard to talk to anyone about it outside too because people were so keen to defend a program they had not experienced but knew its PR, making it one more thing to add to my list of disenfranchised grief, people do not like symbols of their hopes or beliefs criticised nor the only solution they can think of when they want to help someone. The idea that if the program didn't work for you it was you who was at fault not the program didn't help either, well I'm a human being and considerably more complex than a self regulating program that is neither monitored by nor answers to anyone or anything. What is a system created by man better than a living breathing organism with a soul? That's like saying the person who created it was more important than "God" (or whatever your belief to explain the universe is)

It wasn't till well after I left I got to the bottom of what exactly it was about the program that had made me that much worse, all I had to go on while I was there was that god awful internal voice that screams "this is wrong!" and gets louder till you start to listen. I'd left with the intention of suicide things had got that bad (which was just one more thing no one believed) I was thinking I was wrong and they were right, that I really was a worthless piece of garbage, that my life could not be salvaged and the best I could hope for was to swing wildly between dispair, anger and penticostal fervour. I had started to believe that I was such a rotten person I wouldn't like me either and as hard as I tried I couldn't change, that was "the only way" too so there was no hope left now. What saved me was finding that without them I didn't implode, not only that but having room to do my own thinking again I started to see things a little more clearly. I made the leap from it and common sense caught up with me.

I did get a couple of good things out of it though (but they came at a sky high price) I learnt not to be so naive, I learnt about some really effective ways people hurt each other and how to spot them coming, that if you poke, berate and criticize under the pretence of caring/tough love then you can convince someone enough they will say this :thumbs-up while their brain is actually doing this :eek: . Learnt too that honesty around dishonest people with an agenda is a great way to really dump yourself right in it. I learnt that if you tell someone they can't do something they will want to do it more. That you can set someone up by convincing them they are horrible and powerless, no suprise then they will have certain compulsions which reinforces guilt and self punishment and leaves them wondering what the hell happened. Also if you've been kicked in the guts the last thing you need is more of the same.

I also had to unlearn some things, like the entire program and material which I just about knew back to front, I had to unlearn not trusting anyone, unlearn the all or nothing mentality I picked up there, unlearn monitoring and criticising every little thing I thought and did for any kind of potential threat of a slip up, and unlearn everyone who kept trying to paint that crap label back on me. Hi my name's uplate and I'm not an alcoholic, I've been sober ... let me think ... oh I don't know I don't keep track anymore, actually I don't even think about alcohol since I no longer go to meetings where people who have turned alcohol into a fetish go on and on and on about every little detail like a damn cola commercial where you can practically feel the stuff sliding down your throat.

Uplate;
Good thing to be very cautious. I think of AA as a lot of sick people trying to help a lot of sick people...........very sick in the end.

My language would be a lot stronger describing that place and the disease model doesn't wash with me but I know what you're trying to say. I don't see how throwing together social predators and victims can work for a start, nor that no one's monitoring it, nor how a kid on his 4th go at it stiring 5 sugars into his 3rd cup of coffee and twitching in an unsettling way can tell me what's best for me like he knows the answer to life the universe and everything when he doesn't even know my name. It was the dogma and comfort with the mortality rate though I found the most disturbing, and no one was asking "why?" without getting shot down.

I was just thinking TLight, maybe it might be better to discuss this in PM or open up one of those locked thread/groups or whatever they are(techno clutz here) I don't know how to do that, can't even get into PM ATM :think: . It can be a touchy subject (yes I saw your post She Cat) there are some things I would share with an ex 12 stepper that I wouldn't post on a public forum and I think I would feel more comfortable with somewhere to discuss it without feeling like I have to watch my p's and q's to not trigger anyone browsing the forum or worry about being grilled or it happening to someone else for that matter.

 

[Deleted member 541]

Uplate,

Gee you saw my post, well hmmmmmmm. It is a public forum and people can read it. I also do NOT like AA as I think they brainwash people, but......They have an illness as we do. They are sick people that are trying to help one an other, just the same as we do here.

So by TLight saying I think of AA as a lot of sick people trying to help a lot of sick people...........very sick in the end. Is like saying that what we do here is just as sick.....

You can take your discussion private if you like as soon as you get out of moderation, but you can NOT unlock a thread. Only Anthony can do that.

Whether you like my opinion or not I could give a rats ass, but here we have to respect others opinions, whether we agree or not.

 

[Nicolette]

Uplate, I think you have confused locked thread with private discussion?

Once you are out of moderation you will have that ability to have private discussion but until then you will have to sit tight. Yes you are currently in the open section and many people can read and respond to what you or others write. Making a point of it perhaps suggests that you don't want to hear opinions that do not agree with yours? I also get your point about sharing with someone who understands but that does not mean others with differing views are wrong.

Hold tight and you may soon be able to chat privately as you indicated.

 

[midi]

I've come back to this thread with a question. Is AA just another substitute for the old addiction(s)? I stay the hell away from AA. I know many people who've struggled to rid themselves of addictions and just keep exchanging them (myself included) ie: booze for coke, shopping for booze, refined sugars for opiates, religion for sex... Different approaches work for different people, and, well, AA seems like another addiction or cult for over-addictive personalities like mine...

Chat privately? Oh... Hmmm... I'd like to try that one day... but with who, I don't know...

 

[uplate]

She Cat it was not my belief that "what we do here is just as sick" I was not suggesting that and took TLights post to mean something entirely different. I refered to you in my post because I was concerned you would think I was talking over the top of you. My intention was out of courtesy toward you, not to attack you, I would appreciate it if you would extend me the same consideration.

Nicolette yes I think private disscussion was what I was refering to (I'm not familiar with all the features of the site) Also the reason I thought it might be an idea was I wasn't sure if the place I posted was a safe place to go any further into that experience, it has nothing to do with opinions. The subject brought up a lot of bad memories and my previous post was very painful for me not in the least because in the past I was denied the opportunity to share what I'd been through without being condemned over it. Browsing the forum I had believed this would not be a problem here and I was under the impression being a moderated member if it was not appropriate it would not be posted so I felt safe enough to post. Is that part of the forum a safe place where I can share my experiences without politics weighing into it or do I need to post privately was what I was wondering.

 

[Nicolette]

Uplate, moderation is generally to ensure that you are not a spammer and you are generally who you say you are....consistent relevant posting.

I wouldn't say there are politics here per say....I would be more inclined to say that people's reactions to certain things can sometimes be very strong and then there is the difficulty of the correct interpretation without any body language or expression to assist. If you were to write something to which I disagreed, I would still approve it and then perhaps share my opinion if I felt the desire. We do not 'control' the forum by manipulating what does and does not get moderated in that sense.

Hope this answers your questions :smile:

 

[goingonhope]

Just my response to Nic's question

Here's my opinion for nic based on first not reading and exposing myself to little or nothing from this thread and why? Well, bc I've chiefly diagnosed myself just about 20 yrs. ago with alcoholism, and cannot afford tonight to get triggered.

I've fought, and remain to struggle, like heck to find recovery from it within Alcoholics Anonymous, (20 yrs.) and far too often in my surrounding area have suffered unneccessarily so, due to the influx of drug addicted people who desperately seek a reprieve from their heavy addictions and yet sit in the rooms/halls, whatever, and have been instructed to alter every word from their mouths. So another words, instructed to refer to the drug addiction as alcoholism, and instructed to refer to their drugs of choice as liquor; All so as to not disrupt primary purpose. What kind of crap is this. An alcoholic can't help an addict recover from their drug addiction with no experience of such life condition, thought processes and behaviors. Also, due to the influx of those severely mentally ill and alcoholic, whom once were released from too many an asylum back in the 80's.

So if a guy or gal finds and grabs hold of AA's real message in the area from which they live, and builds, maintains and lives upon such a wonderful foundation, I see little to no harm in dating such a person. Actually there is much good with and about real recovering alcoholics.

So Nic, you specifically asked, is it a bad idea to date a recovering alcoholic. In my opinion not if they fully accept Alcoholics Anonymous and a few simple requirements which are nothing more than commonly acceptable principles, striving for the maintance of a good attitude despite difficult realities, altruism, knowing and living an action oriented principled life-style and sharing such rewards and strength with others.

Outside of this, IMHO, drunks and/or alcoholics, or the combo. of alcoholic and drug addicted and or the already mentioned soley drug addicted guy or gal thinking their in disguise, are wasting their's and everyone else hope and time flapping their jaws and not only sickening and brainwashing others, but I certainly wouldn't go near one such pretentiously recovering alcoholic with a sixty foot pole, certainly not to date them.

If I personally continue to expose myself to such bullsh't, starve and/or am deprived from such luxury of real recovery from alcoholism, well then I wouldn't dare wish anyone to date me either.

Untreated alcoholism, actively drunk or simply abstinent, is one insidious, selfish disease and though not a moral issue to the sufferer, just as with Ptsd, ask the many affected by such sometimes immoral behaviors if this is so, and I'm most certain many would disagree with: not a moral issue.

In fact, I can spot a non-recovering alcoholic, obviously drunk but even quote sober a distance away. They frequently think and act like an arsehole. But then again, so do numerous people.

Heck when my mom divorced my untreated alcoholic dad, she met a man afterwards, non-alcoholic and jumped from the frying pan into the flames of severe mental illness.

Simple, Real Recovering, Principled alcoholics are wonderful people.

Delusional alcoholics who think they outline and create Alcoholics Anonymous and recreate the disease's description are far from future soul mates, or perhaps dangerous to even date.

But here again, one certainly doesn't have to be alcoholic or in quote recovery to be abusive. Abusive, and/or disordered people can be found everywhere.

Hope, ..............Hope you make the best chooses for you, Nic!

 

[goingonhope]

Apparently I was already triggered with stuff related to such topic prior to posting within this thread late last night. In fact, I only now know I was.

So though weeks or months which had passed where I'd barely dare read then from this thread; That decision then was in the best interest of all. Then I had trusted my guts that I couldn't be of any help here in offering out anything of service. However, I went ahead and posted here in what I now see as my error and though still confused, and I think well-intentioned, nevertheless was fueled by my emotions and baggage.

I do apologize for any and all fear or disservice done here through offering out my opinion and highly unusual experience. I regret that I didn't take my baggage and brokenness to God, journal it and tuck it away, or even simply put it in diary.

Again, I am truly sorry! Someone recently suggested to me: "Share when it is pertinent, helpful and honest."

I'm of the belief today that last night, I either honestly unwittingly overlooked the unhelpfulness of what I wrote and all, and/or was in denial of my stifled hurt, fear and irritation I felt upon first reading the question months back, any of which I'm responsible for.

Though I don't know this full answer or motive of mine, either way I apoligize and wish I'd kept my stuff to myself.

I will try and likely succeed in doing much better again in any future response to others. HELPFUL is my aim.

I apoligize!

It's important for me that I repeat, what I commented, I know in all sincerity last night:

Nic, Again, I do hope you make the best chooses for you! :dontknow: +

Always what's right for you!


struggling with.....

goingonhope


Also, It dawns on me, perception is everything and what each of us are carrying around and/or dealing with daily does sometimes cloud our perception and trust levels in communications.