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Relationship Is There Love Without Trust?

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Snowflakes

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My sufferer has C-PTSD. She states she loves me, and I believe her. She also tells me, and the therapist, she doesn't trust me and acknowledges that belief is rooted in her past. I've been going through this for years.

I don't cheat....not my style and not who I am. But she thinks I do because she doesn't trust me.

I think that trust is the foundation of love. I mean, how do you love someone you don't trust? I get that she loves me and the PTSD generates the trust issues.

In spite of everything I've learned to help me cope, the walking on eggshells, the isolation, the accusations that come weeks after the fact, the waiting for the other shoe to drop, I'm worn to a frazzle and I can tell that my love is slipping away. I know she is trying but how do you love someone that doesn't trust you regardless of the reason?

I'm getting very close to that point where I emotionally retreat to a safe place in my mind and heart which is going to look remarkably similar to a sufferer that isolates.

This is my question to all of you that I have interacted with since I got here. How do you, how did you, how do I love someone who doesn't trust you, or me?
 
Trust, for me, isn't just about fidelity. I would never cheat on my partner, it's just not in me. I've been cheated on in every serious relationship I've had. I'm not sure what that says about me and the partners I choose...But, fidelity has never been an issue of my trust, even in my current relationship. If someone tells me they are faithful, I believe them and don't look for evidence to the contrary. If I HAVE evidence, THEN it's an issue (with one ex, a mutual friend told me ex might be cheating on me - I only condemned ex once I had evidence of it). I believe him when he says he is faithful.

But I trusted him to be as honest as he could be, and I never doubted his fidelity to me.

Ditto, his trust for me. I don't think he's ever doubted my fidelity, even though he worked in an environment where just about every person he worked with either cheated, or were cheated on, and/or both. And if he didn't trust my fidelity, he must have realized it was his own demons, and kept it to himself, because he never accused me of that.

The deeper trust - that knowing someone is there for you and has your back and your best interests at heart - THAT is what has become the issue. Because of what I've learned about his past relationships, and how he treated me, I had to trust that he wouldn't just dump me, and run, like he's done with every other relationship he's had. He spent our entire time making me believe he wouldn't. And he trusted me, he says, like no one else before. He believed I would not purposely hurt him. So we trusted each other. I ignored my gut that said he'd do exactly what he's done to his other partners, and decide he is done, and there was nothing that could change his mind (which is what he told me he did - once he makes his mind up that something is bad, there is very little that can change it. But everything can change his mind from something being good).

Until he had two heart attacks, and we moved 10 hours away, and his paranoia and distrust of everyone else got to be too much. He was triggered by something I said and did, and didn't trust me enough to tell me, because that seed of doubt that PTSD (or the whole fruit of doubt I guess) puts in their heads, said I was going to hurt him, just like the rest of the world. Then he misunderstood me, and "the other shoe dropped," and I could no longer be trusted. But, he assured me that we would still be ok, because we love each other.

Then my dad died, which added that last stress bucket that was already sunk in the bottom of a stress lake. And he changed his mind, and I bad, and always was bad, and he was done, and there was nothing I could do or say to change that. Just like I was afraid of, but trusted he wouldn't do to me. And he did it, when I needed him the most. I'm not sure if I will ever trust him again.

He doesn't see the hypocrisy in his losing trust in me because of his illness, and a misunderstanding, and thinking that is ok, but is then angry at me (and even further distrusting) for losing my trust in him because he literally abandoned me when I needed him more than I ever had, after he said he wouldn't.

So can love be kept when there is no trust? Yes. I think the emotion can be there (obviously, because I still love him). But I also have learned that love is not enough. I love him unconditionally (which some here, and in the mental health world, would call unhealthy, that unconditional love should only be available to children). So even though he doesn't trust (or at this point even claim to love me - though his actions now show he still cares, as much as he is able) me, I still love him. I do not trust him, but I love him. There can be love, but I'm not sure there can be much of a relationship, without trust.

P.S. excuse the typos and missing words - this is what happens at 2am. :sleep:
 
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@grimalkin I did not see typos and missing words. All I saw, and felt, were your honest emotions talking directly to me. Thank you so much. You have helped me more than you know.

I think your last sentence: "There can be love, but I'm not sure there can be much of a relationship, without trust." sums up exactly the conflict in my mind.

It feels like my heart is mourning the loss of a relationship. I couldn't see that till you told me your story in relation to my question.
 
PTSD is (among other things) a deep-seated conviction that the Bad Thing(s) will happen again. So, if you have PTSD and you were betrayed in an intimate relationship, then you know in your heart that it will happen again. Simultaneously, you fight desperately to stop it from happening again. (If it doesn't contradict itself, it's probably not PTSD.)

When I started learning how to trust, I realised that it doesn't have to be all-or-nothing. It's possible to trust people 'to a certain extent'. But that didn't come easily.

I learned to ask questions: "You just said 'hmmm'. I feel scared now. Please tell me what you're thinking."

Can you love someone who doesn't trust you? If 'love' is a verb that means 'care for', then yes. But we instinctively want to treat people the way that they treat us. And active mistrust hurts. So, I think that the hurt of the mistrust would have to be balanced by something. And there does come a point where we reach the end of the pain we will tolerate.

So, I don't think it's possible to be genuinely intimate with someone who doesn't trust you, because intimacy is a two-way street. But it's possible to care for someone that you're not intimate with. And intimacy can be rebuilt (slowly).

I guess, like trust, love doesn't have to be all or nothing.
 
I hope you all can forgive me if what I'm about to say sounds 'out there', it's just something I've experienced and came to me today (my dad's birthday- both parents are deceased quite young).

My mom and dad were very much in love and crazy about each other. For all intents and purposes I know now my dad seemed to have ptsd, but I will never know. I only know he had the causative circumstances and presented symptomatically, (aas did his father as he described , post the war. In great part when things started to go 'offline' with myself (flashbacks, night terrors, etc etc) I assumed it was due to my genetics. ) Both of them were very good looking, and had many times when others tried to 'make a move' on either one. I know my mom would have left if he slept with anyone else, or had an affair, but I also knew he said in his 'self-medicating' days he took that as, "Ok, I can do everything else". And things were hardly all rosy. He also worked away, so that foundation of trust had to be supernatural, nearly.

What did I see and heard helped? My mom NOT walking on eggshells- *though she chose to not engage with him verbally, sometimes. And she said she had to learn how to communicate, and learn how to write letters every week, or she believed the marriage would have failed. This was hard for her to do, though like most sufferers for my dad it was easier to express that way. (In typical ptsd-fashion before he died he burned the letters in fear they would be found.)

I think that trust is the foundation of love.

Well I think it's critical to have trust to be able to trust back. But they say 'perfect love' casts out all fear, and I think mistrust (especially unfounded) is due to fear. Fear of a repeat of the past or fear of the future, especially.

the accusations that come weeks after the fact, the waiting for the other shoe to drop, I'm worn to a frazzle and I can tell that my love is slipping away...

..I'm getting very close to that point where I emotionally retreat to a safe place in my mind and heart which is going to look remarkably similar to a sufferer that isolates.

Do you think it's possible she's sensing this and equating it to infidelity? I realize it's in response to her mistrusting you, but in a sense could she feel she's getting confirmation? (Though the source is not an affair.)

The deeper trust - that knowing someone is there for you and has your back and your best interests at heart - THAT is what has become the issue.

This ^^^ is so easy for someone with ptsd to forget. It's like memory gets all entangled. :( I can't stress this enough. As others have called it, an 'amygdala hijacking".

Until he had two heart attacks, and we moved 10 hours away, and his paranoia and distrust of everyone else got to be too much

When my dad was extremely ill (no one knew- he got a great check-up on a 3-day medical) he said to me out of the blue ~"everyone is lying, things can't be all good!" I was hurt by his mistrust of me. My mom recognized it accurately as a stress-cup overload from being unwell. And, it's a phenomena with heart conditions (those his was not, though it couldn't have felt too great.)

(As an aside, similarly- and that was the only time- my mom questioned my dad's fidelity to her with one person only (a woman who used to show up drunk and naked at my dad's door, and whom he took out of the bar and covered naked more than once) when she was dying- people who were there said 'ridiculous', a moral action on his part but no cheating despite her actions.)

PTSD is (among other things) a deep-seated conviction that the Bad Thing(s) will happen again.

^^ Very very true. In fact, near impossible to believe otherwise.

I learned to ask questions: "You just said 'hmmm'. I feel scared now. Please tell me what you're thinking."

I believe this is huge ^^^. Though it requires tremendous honesty and vulnerability.

Fwiw, I feel very badly for all here struggling or dealing with this. And I'm ashamed to say I am a 'runner' (though never in a million years did I ever think it could have hurt others' feelings like you've said. I doubt your partners have ever thought it, either. The better you are the more we feel you deserve better than 'us'.)

Also, my dad (inappropriately) used me far too much as an emotional go-between for communication. In some ways he could relate to the trust of a child (and this I've found to be very ptsd-related.)

My dad once said he could never make it up to my mom, what he put her through. She said privately to me she cried herself to sleep many nights. She also laughed and said he was actually right, he couldn't, but she would have died before saying that to him and never acted like that. He too just about died when she nearly did (and he was frequently frantic and 'assuming the worst' when she was even delayed, etc), -he actually saved her life on that occassion, and she saved his I am led to believe with the emotional trouble/ ptsd-related SI moments/ isolation, and after he died when she was dying she had a dream where he was pulling a great load with a strap around his forehead, she laughed/ cringed and said 'probably the weight of my sins' (she wasn't a religious fanatic). I did think today, that was maybe when he did make it up to her.

It wasn't always at all pretty, but in the end it was quite a love story.

Relationships are complicated, ones with ptsd even worse. But someone just said, as long as you are alive there is hope.

You all deserve very good things, good partners and joy in your lives. There is a tremendous amount of forgiveness and understanding needed to deal with someone with ptsd. But you are most important as well, xox.

Ps sorry if typos must run to work.
 
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@BlueOrange Thank you. You write: "There does come a point where we reach the end of the pain we will tolerate" Maybe in my case, I'm quickly reaching the point that I "can" tolerate. After 10 years, I want to continue but it's becoming an insurmountable wall. It's kind of like running a 10K race (at least for me), I may want to finish the race but my legs simply won't allow me to.

I'm going to see my therapist today and ask her to help me move that "can tolerate" point.

You are right about not thinking it's possible to be genuinely intimate with someone who doesn't trust you, because intimacy is a two way street. Herein lies the issue. My sufferer tells me she knows her trust issue is related to her past, hence the PTSD, and she is trying. So...since PTSD is a mental illness and it's not her fault and she is trying, then I should be able to look past the accusations and her lack of trust in me. But it is difficult to be in love with someone who you know doesn't trust you....for whatever reason. Maybe I'm missing something here and hopefully my therapist will have an answer.

However, I think you are absolutely correct and I fear my therapist will tell me the same thing......"There does come a point where we reach the end of the pain we will (can) tolerate.

Thank you so much. You, too, have helped me more than you know.

Ohhh @Junebug That has brought tears to my eyes. As a much older person, I never want to go to my grave with regrets. I hope beyond belief I'm doing right by her. I need to re-read your story to get a sense of the emotions behind it. Thank you @Junebug , you have made a difference in my life
 
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I love my SO, but do not trust him based on his history of behavior in our relationship. In this instance, I think "love" is intermingled with "hope he will change". Unfortunately in my case, his "love" for me does not translate into a motivator for change. Our relationship will likely fail.
 
I love my ex girlfriend and I always will, but I don't trust her any more and that is what would be a stumbling block for me if by some chance the idea of us came back up again. She violated my trust and whilst I may understand some of her behaviour, emotionally I can't trust her. Until now I never doubted her in the slightest in fact I trusted in her far more than anybody else I've ever known in my life.

I'm not sure a relationship can work without trust it is so important to me to be able to trust the other person, when I trusted her I always was confident she'd be faithful in any situation. Now? Not so much and that doubt is a seed to grow a garden of weeds.
 
The better you are the more we feel you deserve better than 'us'.

This is something that we (as sufferers in this sub forum) need to acknowledge from time to time. After all, the Bad Thing very clearly happened because we deserved it, we are horrible people, and it's impossible to tolerate us without massive effort. (Except when we go to the opposite extreme in our thinking and feeling.)

There are many times when I've been overwhelmed with gratitude, when relief has flooded over me, and I've just wanted to cry and/or scream because I feel safe enough that I'm able to feel pain. This can be really confusing for people who were nice to me moments earlier! And so, since the instinctive response to every problem is to hide it, the belief that 'even being kind to me hurts you' is one of the many things that motivates withdrawal.

You all deserve very good things, good partners and joy in your lives. There is a tremendous amount of forgiveness and understanding needed to deal with someone with ptsd. But you are most important as well, xox.

This. A thousand times this.

I should be able to look past the accusations and her lack of trust in me.

What happens to your thoughts and feelings if you replace 'should' with 'am not currently'? (That seems to be the true meaning of 'should' a lot of the time.)
 
This is something that we (as sufferers in this sub forum) need to acknowledge from time to time. Af...

I think this is the strongest element of this forum for me, that supporters and sufferers interact and learn from each other, I find it so much easier to learn about my ex from other sufferers as I am removed from the situation, I'd hope sometimes sufferers can learn from other supporters with whom they have no prior attachments in a similar vein.
 
@BlueOrange I did replace "should" with "am not currently" and that single thought allowed me to "move the target" as @Junebug suggested.

Actually, every thing that everyone here talked about, the therapist touched on in one form or another.

Towards the end she talked to my sufferer and said exactly what @Junebug said: "what can the 2 of you do together to make this "doable" for her-then she must do it" That was incredible.

The therapist realized I had reached the end of my rope and gave us both the tools....very simple tools. If we both do it, and it's doable for her, then we keep going. If we don't, then our paths will grow to far apart to fix.

As @TheMinsterman says...the strength of this forum is the ability for sufferer and supporter to talk to each other. Hearing from the sufferer gives me that extra patience, that extra insight, on how I can be a better supporter. Hearing from other supporters keeps devastating surprises from overwhelming me.

Thank you all so much. You all have helped me more than you realize. You have pointed this lost soul towards a better direction, a better path, and to use the analogy from my diary.....I think I'll be able to help my sufferer drive down this road together. Thank you. ❤
 
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