Just tell me the truth

[Fiadh]

Hi all, I’m not in therapy at the moment. Haven’t been for many years and Spent about 6 months with a therapist trying EMDR going through events that happened.

My biggest stumbling block is survivors guilt. I feel bad for being alive whilst others died. Now what pissed me off at the time was the therapist trying to turn all of the blame away from me, eg you were young, you didn’t have medical training, you can’t control the weather, it would have been impossible to do this or that.

Now i feel it would be easy for my mind to accept these ‘excuses’ and feel better about the situation and move forward. But sometimes I feel like they should be truthful, they weren’t there, how did they know I didn’t make a shit move, how did they know that something I said impacted things to lead to another death.

It feels like therapy has a way of making you feel better about yourself even if you did make that shit decision and sometimes just sometimes I want to speak to someone who will be honest with me and not talk out of some textbook.

But then again my brain may be flawed, what you think?

 

[Ronin]

Even if you made the shit move, still may not be on you. Or mostly on you. Or preventable by you. Or guaranteeing the RightMove would have made things better, in the short term, or the long term.

You were not literally making them die.
You wanted, still want, the exact opposite.
You are still trying for them, very hard, in finding all of the ways things should be different.

So maybe, just maybe, the guilt isn’t all that objective?

 

[Tinyflame]

Hi @Iriseen . Well Idk if therapy makes everyone feel better, but I am thankful when I feel better. And that is the intention, right? So in that way, I think your T is right.

I have thought a lot about this lately. There is the (useful) exercise of apportion of blame. Forty percent here; 50 % with another individual. Perhaps 100% someone else's actions, or there have would been no immediate deaths to begin with. Etc.

But most of all, JMHO, but I think it's the brain's way of somehow trying to a) find a way to re-write the ending, i.e. unwind the nightmare that this couldn't have happened, surely? , and b) preventing such a thing from ever happening again.

Whereas, the reality is, it did happen, the ending of it can never be re-written. And it really actually doesn't matter if years (or months, or days) later you are wondering or asking or (re)thinking what could you have done differently, or why/ if you were the cause. Because even if you would/could have done something differently, it wasn't meant to pan out differently, and there was never any intention on your part to cause harm.

So no, I don't think your thinking is flawed, but I think your T is correct. And what would that mean, to not have blame? , is another question.

 

[Freida]

you made the least worst decision

Never the best possible because sometimes there are NO good options. So you have to make the one that is the least worst. When every choice that's available sucks you have to choose the one that causes the least damage -- even if that means people die.

Does that mean you are to blame? Maybe. But what were the options? Was there any variation that would have ended better? If no, then you can't hold the blame. If yes? You can't rewrite history but you can view it differently.

Survivor's guilt is awful. Why does this person live and that person die? It's a question that can't be answered. It makes sense that when you are the one left behind you feel somehow responsible for what happened to them. Even when you're not.

 

[Justmehere]

I’m not sure that it’s guilt that you’re feeling is guilt based on the way describe it. Guilt tends to lead people towards change and improvement. Shame shuts people down

Blaming oneself for a traumatic event is a way to cope with the pain of the event. It’s a way to find control.

Is blaming yourself working to help change the past or does blaming yourself help you do what you would like to do in your life now?

 

[Muttly]

My ex-therapist, who wasn't so great, said one thing that really made a huge difference. When my good friend killed himself and it felt like everyone in the world was telling me not to feel guilty and it wasn't my fault and blah, blah, blah, this therapist said it was ok to feel guilty. That the guilt doesn't mean I did anything wrong, it means I cared and do care. I needed to hear that. Time and life have given me healing and I no longer have PTSD around my friend's suicide (I do around other things). Did I miss signs? Could I have been a better friend? Maybe. Perhaps even probably.

Does any of that change the fact he is dead? No. It used to eat me up inside that he died and I lived. We were both dealing with significant mental health issues but he had kids and a family that really cared. I didn't. And while I ache for his kids I no longer feel like I should be the one who didn't make it. I've lost a lot of people. With all the self-destructive behavior I've engaged in, I don't understand why I'm still alive. But all the guilt, second-guessing, replaying in the world doesn't change the fact I'm still here. It doesn't bring my friend back. It's ok to care, but even if you made the shittiest decisions possible, your alive and you can't bring anyone else back. Th

 

[EveHarrington]

.....so what you’re trying to say is that your therapist was full of shit for not putting all the blame on you?

....that the only way she could be honest was by blaming you?

Can you see the flaw in this thinking?

 

[Fiadh]

.....so what you’re trying to say is that your therapist was full of shit for not putting all the blame on you?

....that the only way she could be honest was by blaming you?

Can you see the flaw in this thinking?

nope can’t see flaw in this. If I went to therapist and said I feel really really sad about xyz they would encourage me to talk about my feelings and perhaps cry. If I went with anxiety they may use exposure work and again expose my feeling and work with them. In my experience as soon as you say that you are guilty of something, it’s a straight off- no your not, it’s not your fault, it’s shame, let’s put a percentage on it. I’m fed up of living in a fluffy world, I wake up everyday thinking about how I don’t deserve to be here but those others do. But can’t face going to speak to someone who pulls out bullshit psychology on me- that’s not aimed at you @EveHarrington- you started me on a rant. I’ll stop now.

 

[Justmehere]

Therapists are trained to treat mental health symptoms. They are not judge and jury of the past.

If you are looking to resolve mental health symptoms, it may mean trying something new.

If you are at fault, and made an error, then focus on change you would like to make moving forward. That is what therapy can help to do. It’s not he be all end all either. You may find other tools more helpful.

Therapists can’t validate you can control anyone else but you. Perps will totally validate that for you.

I really get that you didn’t do what you wished you would have done. That’s pretty common actually. People are not generally all good or all bad. I do not know anyone who went through trauma and made no mistake before, during, and after. I don’t know any human who hasn’t made mistakes in their lives.

When therapists are pointing out to you percentages of fault, they might be challenging black-and-white thinking.

For example, if I yelled at someone about something small and they abused me... I think it’s fair to talk to a therpaist about improving my ability to handle my anger now. They won’t confirm I’m to blame for the actions of another, or I have ability to control others by never having problems of my own... because I can’t control others. But a good therapist will help with what is under my control here and now.

If you are to blame, there are a few options to handle it now. 1.) continue to do what you are doing 2.) use the guilt to propel you forward to change and/or make amends for the past.

A therpaist can help with #2. They can’t help with #1, not if they are any good.

If your therapist is being too Pollyanna generally, then I’d suggest finding a trauma therapist who does work with trauma alone but also will speak to things like addiction and anger and etc. - not because I’m assuming you deal with any of those issues, but because therapists that deal with those kinds of issues tend to be very tell-it-like-it-is therapists.

That being said, it’s really common for people to get very pissed when therapist suggest something isn’t 100 percent their fault and that their self contempt or sense of being able to control things and people outside of themselves isn’t entirely deserved or helpful anymore.

And if you don’t want to change it, and you don’t have to change it. You get to make the choice.

 

[The Albatross]

i feel it would be easy for my mind to accept these ‘excuses’ and feel better about the situation and move forward. But sometimes I feel like they should be truthful, they weren’t there, how did they know I didn’t make a shit move, how did they know that something I said impacted things to lead to another death.

Would probably dig about why the possibility of other angles than the one that is causing you grief and pain and shame and blame is "an excuse". Would self examine and write out how/why you don't think other perceptions/insights/possibilities are not truthful. You are though right, they weren't there. Neither were we/any of us... which tells me that until you unstick yourself you're gonna stay stuck. Not likely that other than perceiving a majority there's gonna be any one thing that will flip on the switch for you.

I had a couple of situations like that and both people died. I did everything I could. I was 15/16 and then I was 21/22. Until I could accept that in spite of my best efforts they died AND see that not accepting that was ME and that there were other factors for why I wasn't doing that.... I couldn't move forward.

What other factors did you have before the event that would cause you or be a contributing factor for your rigidness in this issue to the extent that it is causing such distress in your life?

 

[Tinyflame]

Did you trust your T to tell you the truth @Iriseen ? Because saying 'they just lie', is sort of like calling them a liar, too. :(

I was going to say, what I meant is the relentless self-blame is more a symptom than necessarily all the truth, but @The Albatross said it far better. What beliefs do you hold, or what is in your past, that causes you to relentlessly level this upon yourself, where others wouldn't? And/ or, were the situation reversed, would you want those people to end their life because you lost yours?

But I do 'get it'. :hug: :(

 

[Friday]

If I couldn’t trust a therapist to tell me the truth, they wouldn’t be my therapist.

That includes calling me out on my bullshit. No matter which way I’m shoveling it.

• There’s shit I’m legitimately to blame for.
• There’s shit I take the blame for, because it was my responsibility, even if I had no direct hand in it, nor any way to change things.
• There’s shit I take the blame for that’s only partially my fault & I’m being a control freak denying other people the right to their own agency.
• There’s shit I take the blame for because I’m being a big damn whiny baby pwetending da beeg bad scawy world is more under my control than it actually as :rolleyes: I hate that one. Such total bullshit.
• And a few others.

Because I have such a strong tendency towards taking things on that aren’t mine? And I know it? It’s reeeeeally important to me to have someone I can reality-check with.

Someone lying to me about something that IS my fault, or partially my fault, isn’t? Is just as useless to me as someone mollycoddling me by agreeing with me when I’m wrong. (Because I’m such a whiny helpless little baby, such a delicate wilting flower, I have to be lied to? f*ck that noise. IDFK whether my therapist is male or female, but the need to have the balls to disagree with me.) Hard truths can be gotten through. Lies can f*ck right off.

3 things that tie into all this -that may or may not be useful to you- are

- If it was my fault? I can fix it. (Core belief. Totally wrong. And I know it, but it still comes into play, rather often. It’s my knee jerk. I have to consciously counter it all the dang time.)

- If I wouldn’t take credit for someone else’s successes, why would I take credit for someone else’s failure? It’s their credit. Not mine. In either direction.

- Never accept the blame for evils others do. (Friday’s Rules)