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News Manchester this time

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Our secret squirrels do an amazing job in intelligence to thwart a lot of this stuff from ever reaching us civilians. I think its just a sign of the times that we all now need to be used to, all allied nations to the invasion have to suck up the repercussions. America has their ongoing attempts, the UK, Australia, other countries.

I had a guy say the other week to me, something along the lines of, "kill them all and that will fix the problem." Ok... kill who all? "All radicals." Ok... but the problem is that a non-radical today is a radical tomorrow when you have just killed their family for no good reason to them.

This technique is not new or exclusive to radicals. People have been shooting others and blowing shit up for being disgruntled, well, forever.

How do you tell a depressed kid who stockpiles weapons ready to go kill his classmates because a few bullied them? You can't, usually.
 
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1990 is where it started -- where the Middle East countries told the US to stay out of their fighting otherwise all shit is going to break lose. Didn't happen, obviously, (invasion and occupy) and thus retaliation with 2001 was a significant retaliation for what is, our own stupidity as allied nations.

It's a fair point. I'd really argue our involvement in the region started back with either the formation of Israel (but without oil in the region, I suspect we'd have fed Israel to the wolves long ago) or the Shah of Iran (once he fell it was inevitable we'd be at war with someone in the region, sooner or later). But I definitely won't argue that give us a toehold in anywhere and American Aggression / Expansion will soon follow. And from there? Retaliation in kind. Toehold in Japan gave us 2 (and a half) wars on mainland Asia trying to extend our reach (failed), but in a destabilized region with weak leadership (MEast, SouthAmerica) that means vigilantes (terrorists) seeking revenge individually and in small groups. It's just human nature. Kill my kid? I'll come for you. And, yup, the stage for that was definitely set in the 90s, and cemented 2000. Which -also agreed- is/was nothing but pure stupidity and hubris.

At least on our part. Our MO as a nation since Day1 has always been to rope as many other nations into our battles as possible. Europe's only been doing that -kinda sorta not really- for a few decades. We're fawking young as a nation but we've been doing it for 400 years. It's arguably, what we're best at. So I don't know how much choice our Allies really had, when the rubber meets the road. Yet another charming thing about us, and why we're so widely loved across the globe. :inlove: Bringing people together! Whether they wanna be there, or not. >.>
 
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Going to have to agree with this and offer a useless apology for this imperious country (past and present) I was born into.
I'd like to counter this with:
You don't owe anyone an apology. Especially not the people who commit these atrocities.

Just like you have never had any role in the invasion of the middle east. Those kids at a concert, never did either.
They were not responsible for anyone's suffering.
This was not an act of self defence, against some act of military aggression. This was a cowardly act of mass murder.

I don't give a f*ck about the reason why the western world is apparently deserving of retribution for it's "irresponsible colonialism". Those kids, KIDS!
Did nothing to deserve being blown to f*cking bits in a concert, just because they happen to live in a country involved in a recent military conflict with a middle eastern country.

This was not a military base, or house of government or political residence. This was a group of young teens at an entertainment venue.

I'm going to use myself for a little analogy here:
I really hate people who drink and drive. I am here because of such a person. If I were to look up the family of someone who I knew had driven a vehicle under the influence of drink or drugs. Go to their house then murder their children, what would that make me?
A hero? f*ck no! It would make me a very bad, cowardly homicidal lunatic.

Whatever the motivation, slaughtering innocent children is never acceptable recourse.
That is what this was. The slaughter of innocent children over something that they had nothing to do with.
So please don't apologise to the monster.

Whatever our countries have done to the middle east, does not mean it's somehow okay to blow up our children.
 
Europe's only been doing that -kinda sorta not really- for a few decades.
Take a look at that prior link I posted, wikipedia, it outlines a fair bit of flip flopping from European countries over the past centuries. I think most countries are guilty of stupid shit over the centuries.
 
You don't owe anyone an apology. Especially not the people who commit these atrocities.

So please don't apologise to the monster.

Both your tone and wording seem to indicate you think I was apologizing to the terrorists who committed such a hateful act of violence. Not so. Nor do I think western countries are deserving of such atrocities. I do think I have a solid grasp on the evolution of terrorism and I do "give a f*uck" as I believe we all need to find some way to come together to make this world a better place. I can assure you that I do not need the Manchester situation explained to me. If I was apologizing to any at all it is to those who needlessly loose their lives. I stand by my sentiment.
 
@ShikibuZ I don't think you are apologising to the terrorists, though I see how that came across to you that way.
I'm more wondering who you are apologising for?
As you have done nothing wrong as far as I can tell. (I did mention that, but I see how it could have gotten lost in the rest of my post.)

What you say about all of us needing to come together in peace to make the world better. That I 100% agree with. I can't fault that in any way.

But please forgive me, but apologising for being an American is I don't feel, going to help. If anything I feel it is counterproductive.
I would feel exactly the same were a lowly Pashtun farmer who spent their whole lives living in a tiny settlement in the Afghan mountains, never seeing a British soldier, let alone a civilian, apologising for any of my country's dead.
It would be meaningless as they had nothing to do with it. Frankly, it would be a bit patronising as that individual had no way of preventing it either. Were he to tell me "Sorry I'm from Afghanistan, the country which some of these killers have come from." I'd be saddened at such a sentiment, as I don't believe that the actions of a few wicked individuals to be representative of the majority.

Just as it has been my experience, that most Americans are good people who want to work hard and raise happy families. Not make trouble for anyone else, let alone drop bombs on foreign soil. So why apologise for the actions of others who are committing acts contrary to the ethics which most of your countrymen hold dear, but you have no individual power to prevent?

Maybe you meant it in a sense of feeling sorry for the victims?
Which is fine, but that's not how it read to me. It read as you apologising for the actions of some people, namely your government, which were out of your control. Or that they have irreversibly tainted the land which you reside. Which I don't think they have.

I like the US. Everytime I've been there I have had the pleasure of meeting lots of people who are friendly and welcoming. I've always been met with hospitality, not hostility. I have seen good people and taken away a positive impression of the people and culture. Sure, I've met the odd jerk here and there. But they're clearly the exception not the rule. Jerks can be found everywhere. It's not an American thing, but a worldwide phenomenon.

That's how I see America. It's the land of freedom and opportunity. A union of peaceful states working together for a common good, while respecting individual liberty.
Why apologise for that?
Is it perfect? No. But nothing is perfect. But taking pride in such ideals is not a bad thing.

I grew up not far from Manchester, in a city called Leeds. This bombing hits a little close to home for me.
It only heaps more sadness onto the tragedy to read one of those nice, honest, good hearted Americans seemingly holding a level of misplaced guilt. When the only person who holds the guilt is the persons responsible for the bombing, and those indoctrinating impressionable people into believing that murder and violence is okay.
Those are the only people who need be apologising.
Not you.
Not America.
Not the United Kingdom.
Not Canada.
Not even Australia.

Finding blame and fault with a government is not going to prevent a homicidal asshole from strapping on a bomb and killing people.
Nor will it prevent it.
Homicidal asshole is going to use whatever convenient excuse is available for their crimes.
Removing the excuses will only change the target of blame. There will still be a murder.
It will simply be for a different reason, equally as meaningless.

Now that Manchester has been attacked should we now bomb <insert middle eastern city>?
No.

Why not?
Because more death, will do no good.
Why don't I blame <insert western government> for the deaths of these people?
Because they aren't the person who had the bomb. Some homicidal assholes did, or played large part in helping. I blame them. No one forced them to kill innocent children. That's on them.

So I apologise to you, @ShikibuZ if I came off as calling you an apologist for the terrorists. Because that would be inaccurate and unfair.

Hopefully this has cleared up the misunderstanding.
 
OK I see a lot of emotive language in the posts here. I understand why people it stirs up emotions but I'm a hardcore realist when it come to acts of terrorism. Part of the problem we have in dealing with terrorism is that most people don't understand what terrorism really is.

I prefer an old school definition of terrorism. Terrorism is the use of extreme acts of violence against individuals or groups with the intention of influencing others.

In other words the people who were killed in Manchester were not the targets. The people who were killed in the recent car bomb attack in Baghdad were not the targets. They were the message. The message is for us.

The message is this. You are not safe. Your children are not safe. Your police cannot protect you. Your military cannot protect you. Your government cannot protect you. Stay home where you are safe. Fear what is different.

They hope to provoke an overreaction. They want you to push your government to crackdown on anyone that's different. They want you sell your freedoms for a false sense of security. They hope that their actions provoke governments to repress their own people.

So what can you do? Maybe not what you might think.

Look one another in the eyes. Debate. Engage. Protect your hard won freedoms. Stand up for the rights of others. Even those you disagree with. Don't let fear keep you silent. Don't comply in advance.
 
This is the third bombing of Manchester in my lifetime. First two were IRA. I was caught up in the first one as a teenager in the double bomb, my dad risked his life in the second one at the Arndale and now there is this one.
The latest updates say there have been many arrests around the UK and abroad of people involved with the planning of this. The latest toll is 22 dead, 116 injured and currently there are still 23 critically injured people in hospitals.
My heart goes out to all affected by this totally barbaric insanity. My thoughts have also been with Ariana Grande. The turmoil she must be in knowing all those kids and families were there for her concert! Now I know nothing about her really... but I do think it takes balls of steel for her to come back to Manchester this Sunday to do a joint benefit concert to raise money for those affected. She's not much more than a kid herself from what I've seen of her.
Somehow this lunacy has to stop.
 
It looks like there has been a new terror attack. Manchester this time.

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yes another tragedy of inhuman humanity Afghanistan today 90 killed 30 Christians beheaded by Isis this is a so called holy war that goes back to the crusades where we sang hymns about destroying the muslim hordes. It sadly is a world where poverty can be used to create fear and create hatred through ignorance. If you poke a bees nest you will get stung
 
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I just watched Chris Alexander on the news talk about the attack in Kabul. He was the Canadian ambassador while I there as a soldier and later as an aid worker. I remember him well. He said he regretted that Canada had withdrawn all its soldiers from the country. Its one of my biggest regrets as well. I remember the hope Afghans had at the time. They thought that with the help of the international community things would get better. By the time I went back to Afghanistan for the fourth time that hope was gone. We abandoned Afghanistan while they still needed us.
 
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