My Way To Fight Back

[Anarchy]

Hi Snow White,

Sorry about taking so long to get the reply up, my network connection went down. Unfortunately I can't blame the network for the length of the post ;-)

Oh hell I am so avoidant.
There's a mythical English bird called the Oozalem bird. According to different people, when this bird is confronted by something that it finds stressful, it can either behave by sticking its head in the sand and whistling out of its arse,

or, it can fly around at high speed and in ever decreasing circles until it vanishes from this universe up its own...

I think I follow that first pattern of behaviour, my ex agrees and says better that I realized it late than never (I was speaking to her on what would have been our wedding anniversary).

Is your Dad serious or is he perhaps half joking about the walking? I put on an act of complaining about eating “dead green things” – even though I do like eating fresh vegetables. (I'm making too many references to stories; I think there's one of the winnie the pooh stories where ee-aw the grey, depressive donkey, is complaining about eating nothing but thistles, when he is questioned about what his favourite food would be, if he had the choice, his eventual answer was “thistles”. The re-framing into a free choice, even when there are limited or no alternatives, can make a massive difference).

I have some friends who are academic philosophers, and it is surprising how many of them believe that psychotherapy is not compatible with their training in thinking problems through, but do believe that they can ruminate their way through feeling down – not surprisingly, a lot of them seem to be on medication and dulling their minds to the problems they experience in their lives, rather than addressing the problems.

My own experience with relationship counselling ended when it was suggested that I might have PTSD – and I completely lost faith in the therapist and the process. It took about 4 years for me to come to the conclusion that he was probably right. There was already a lot of grievances in the relationship before we went to the guy, but he was good while we were going.

So, yes I do think you should speak with your mum and dad, probably separately, but I don't know how to do it so that they think they have found their own solutions and ways forward, rather than them resisting.

CBT talks all about the therapist being Socratic.

I don't know what your dad used to work in?

I'm in civil engineering / construction, which has been very much in recession since the 2008 crash, I'm also in around fifty something years old. I got a new job this February, despite having a career gap spanning the previous 5 years, so it is possible to find work, even in depressed areas of the economy, where it would be very easy to tell yourself “there are no jobs”. I did price myself well below what I was earning before the 2008 crash, but it is still far better than the soul destroying crap that is “social security” or doing a few odd jobs for a little cash and living in a cold and damp cottage without mains electric – which is what I had been doing.

Perhaps you could gently question some of his beliefs and challenge him to test them against what is out there? Perhaps some employer locally who is looking for someone just like your dad is when he has to get up to go to work in the morning and has deadlines to meet.

Perhaps you can ask him about some of the good times you both remember, or get him to drive you to somewhere that he took you as a child and you know that he has good memories about? Some way to find a way in and to show him memories of happier times and the real possibility of him having happier times again.

A psychiatrist that I know, said that he took his first and most difficult patient (I'm not suggesting that your dad is anything like this!), up a little welsh mountain, a few steps at a time, but at the top, the route gave a sudden and fantastic view, and that achievement gave the guy some solid proof that firstly someone actually cared enough about him to take him there, and secondly that he actually could still do things (at the bottom of the guy's problem was his marriage which was effectively over – but he couldn't admit it. He'd secretly had casual sex, once, when he was away on a business trip, felt really guilty about it, then convinced himself he had caught AIDS, and despite numerous negative HIV test results he was still intent on killing himself…) he made a full recovery.

I hope this one makes you laugh, I'm certainly not suggesting that you try it (it comes under the category of precipitating a crisis). A “For Sale” sign had been mistakenly put up outside the house of the guy who used to work on the farm. My grand mother had taken the guy's wife shopping, because she doesn't drive, and when she got home and saw the sign her response was “Eeeee, I never thought our D would do a thing like that...”

My grandfather had dropped the husband off after work, and when he saw the “For Sale” sign his words were “bloody hell! she's kept quiet about that!”

I don't know what they said to each other or perhaps even threw at each other when he went into the house, or how long it took them to work out that the sign was beside the wrong house. They're still together about 30 years later.

@

 

[Deleted member 12723]

Snow I like the detachment action for you because I am going through a problem with my own daughter where the consequences of her own actions are motivating her to change.

I think it is human to have to hit bottom before we are willing to do whatever it takes to change. Hugs.

 

[Deleted member 19804]

@Anarchy no need to apologise! You don't have to help me, but you do and I really appreciate that.

The story about the mythical bird made me giggle. I liked it. Just like the one about the for sale sign.:)
.
I'm afraid my Dad is dead serious about the walking. He is a very stubborn man: once he's decided something, it's almost impossible to make him change his mind.

Your academic friends sound a lot like him. My dad is also super rational and he hates addressing negative emotions. He internalises everything. Instead of talking about things, he dulls his minds with stupid computergames and alcohol while pretending to the world that he is doing great. The simple statement that 'there are no jobs' sounds all too familiar to me.

It must have been very tough for you to live in a cottage while lacking electricity. If I may ask, what helped you to get back on your feet in those times?

Psychotherapy can be very hard for people who prefer perfect reason. It's difficult to accept that you can be irrational and that that's ok. But at some point one has to swallow their pride and fears and just go get the help they need. At least that's what I think.

To answer your question: my dad used to be a pretty high level manager. And he was really good at it. Unfortunately, there are plenty of young, highly educated managers out there already; he doesn't stand much of a chance against them.

I like your idea of bringing up the good old times with him. I've done that a few times and it seemed to make him a little happier. But maybe I can think of something we can really do together. I'll also try to challenge his beliefs a bit. It will be hard, but I'll give it a go.

Thank you for your long message! Do you accept hugs? If you do, then :hug:

@gizmo thank you, I will work on that. Especially in situations when I'm not with him it would be good not to worry so much. I hope you'll find a way to practice some of that same detachment action with your daughter, becausr you have plenty of things on your plate already. :hug:

 

[Deleted member 12723]

Snow, I have completely detached from my daughter. We had a good heart to heart and it was very touching. She is an adult and I am moving forward with my life.

 

[Deleted member 19804]

Wow @gizmo , good for you. It must not have been easy though. If you want to talk, I'm always here for you :hug:

 

[Anarchy]

Hi Snow white,
I'm reading Richard bentall's "madness explained" at the moment. He has a really interesting analysis of factors predisposing people to depression.
Basically the big problem seems to be when there is a big gap between how people believe they should be and how they believe they actually are.
Your dad as a former high level manager, now sitting in the house playing computer games and ruminating about it, is about as had as that can get.

What got me out was going on the road to avoid a narcissistic character who used to come to help my brother. I got to spend time with friends who I had been too ashamed of myself to contact, and I got to go places I had been in happier times.
Those associations brought back context dependent memories that I didn't have easy access to when I was isolating.
My friends also tempted me with suggestions of possible jobs, and that seemed to give me the courage to leave the farm again.
It was a bumpier journey than that suggests, but it worked.

I actually lost the new job on Friday, but I think you can pick up I'm still feel ing positive,
I don't feel the loss to be due to anything inside te
Whatever it was (the work they took me on to do hasnt arrived and wont until september or even later in the year ) is not universally true in every situation and is not eternal.

If I wanted to be ultra negative, I could frame it as.
Its me, I'm old
Everyone can see I'm old, it'll be the same everywhere I go, no one wants old guys like me. It'll only get worse, I can't get younger....

Internal attribution, universal applicability and eternal.

Hope my experience is some help in breaking that dysfunctional cognitive style,

Some of the experiments bentall cites used tasks which were impossible to do, and made the participants explain their failure, in order to temporarily dent their self image.

I don't know if you could reverse engineer that to give your dad an ego boost and an opening for you to get some good context dependent memories triggered.

Hugs and good luck with your studies

 

[Anarchy]

Hi SW
Just dropping in to say I hope everything is going OK for you

 

[Deleted member 19804]

Hi @Anarchy , thank you. I apologise for taking so long to reply.

I do understand what you mean with the gap between who people want to be and who they are. I believe it's very similar to cognitive dissonance; there is two ways to handle it: to change the situation or change one's attitude about it. For my Dad being unemployed isn't easy to solve, so it's easier to put up walls around himself and pretend all is fine. But I think deep down he knows very well that he is only making things worse, which causes more stress etc.

Your experience really helps me understand what he must be going through and what are the ways to get him out of this position. I really appreciate you sharing all this with me.

I'm sorry you lost your job, but glad that you are staying positive. Will you get it back in September?
You are right to see that things will not always be like this, and the lack of jobs available does not reflect a lack in your abilities. The job market is still very tough, unfortunately. Even for young people fresh out of college, who are cheaper hires than people with more experience.
I guess the key is to stay busy. Spending more time with friends, like you said, can be a really good idea. I hope you'll get some good news on the job front soon :hug:

I'll try to remind my dad that he's good at a lot of things and that he has a lot to offer. Father's day is coming up as well, so that can be a good opportunity. I hope what I say to him will resonate with him. Usually it's like talking to a wall when it comes to these things.

 

[Anarchy]

Hi snow white,
There is zero pressure to reply to me.
The reasons for the job market being so tough is great grounds for a rant, it might give you some insights that could be useful to both of us, so I'll have a go.
An employer is only going to take someone on if they expect to earn sufficient from it to make it worth their while. So, they want someone who is productive, reliable and relatively risk free.
Here is where it gets contentious and political.
Anything that places extra costs on the employer and / or makes it harder to get rid of someone who is not performing as hoped, or in my case, if the businesses does not develop as expected. Will make employers more hesitant to take people on, especially those who have no proven track record of performance ( eg young people), people who don't have many indicators of likely productivity (eg people who don't have school certificates, degrees etc) or people who might be more likely to fall I'll ( eg oler people, or young women who might have babies). Or others who might be perceived as somehow less likely to be reliable and productive (this is where all of the racisms, sexisms and other prejudices rear their ugly heads).

So far I'm probably appearing quite far "left".

In an ideal world, someone who wants a job doing, should be able to reach agreement on price, timescale, quality etc, with someone of their choice who is willing to do that job, or so we would have thought...

Unfortunately, there are gangs of thugs who can't stop interfering with others lives, and claiming that they are helping the people that they are harming. (OK, after appearing lefty I'm now appearing paranoid).

Fortunately in the early 20th century, the art of political spin was less developed and the thugs were less shy about explaining their schemes and cunning plans.
Sidney Webb, who was leading light amongst the British Fabien socialists, came out with an essay proposing minimum wages, employer funded pensions etc. Not with the aim of helping and protecting women, young people, the disabled, and minority groups in the work force, but to make sure that employing them was made far too expensive and unattractive.

Similarly, the original debates that lead to minimum wages in places like America, Australia, south Africa etc, were overtly racist, as unionised whites sought to have none whites excluded from the job market by ensuring that they couldn't offer to do a job for less than the union decided rate.

The wider implications which follow from such policies, apart from making employers much more risk averse when they are recruiting are pretty hideous, so please excuse me going o t, to mention them.

One effect of raising the price of labour above where it would reach by simple supply and demand meeting, is to reduce the amount demanded. Thin of an auction, the price of a Rembrandt painting is bid up until there is only one willing buyer left.

At the same time, more people want to offer their labour in return for such high wages. I'm sure that the Netherlands is just like everywhere else, an has people calling for immigration controls.

Similarly, places where employers are not burdened with the extra costs will have people offering the goods and services at lower cost. Naturally your politicians will try to protect you from the evils and dangers of better value goods and services.

Taken to its logical conclusion, and you get the German pattern of national socialist policies from the 1930s, and the policies such as lebensraum, to supply the raw materials for autarkic production, rather than the generally more liberal free trade of pre 1914 (I know that the presence of empires, complicates that simplified picture).

OK, back to what it means for us.

The more we can take the burdens off employers, the more likely we are to get a foot in the door, prove our productivity, and build a career.
Unfortunately, the risks of taking young people (and older people who have been out of the market for a while) mean that one of the few ways to prove productivity is to work for nothing ( yeah, fecking slavery!), so only The people with families able to support them get to gain experience... The rest of us have to do the equivalent of flip burgers fast enough to cover the minimum wage, and stay within what customers are willing to pay for their burger.

 

[Deleted member 19804]

Your 'rant' was very insightful, @Anarchy. I think you know a lot about the job market and its history. I had no idea that the minimum wage principles were based on racism and sexism!

You are probably right that my father has plenty of risk factors that employers prefer to avoid. He is older, hasn't worked in a while, etc. What they don't know is that he is a true perfectionist, and a very hard worker who has an enormous amount of knowledge and experience that he can share. It isn't fair that so many potential employers refuse to see those parts of people. Everything has to be cheap and efficient, with no individual differences wherever possible. The uniform perfect employee.

I don't think you sound very "left' and you definitely don't seem paranoid to me. That is, coming from a fellow PTSD sufferer ;)
I only didn't understand who you're referring to with these "gangs of thugs". Could you explain that to me?

The great idea of making people work for free, or in diplomatic words: "to gain valuable experience", disgusts me as well. As a psychology student, I have heard many stories about careers starting by first working for free. I am already in massive debt and my family does not have any money either. How is someone like me to provide for her- or himself when we won't even get paid for our work?

They should make new laws about this. Injustice like all this makes me angry.
I hope your next employer will show you more respect.

 

[Anarchy]

Hi, just checking in to wish you well

and to offer a very unsatisfactory answer to your question

I only didn't understand who you're referring to with these "gangs of thugs". Could you explain that to me?

I've been regretting using that.

Have you seen the "red pill or blue pill" scene in the first of the Matrix films? and how grim things are for Neo after he swallowed the red pill?
one of the lightest explanations that I know, takes about 90 minutes to read, and it is fun to read, most other explanations have lots of logical background in them and can be heavy.

but there is no going back after it,

and it is not just the one "red pill moment", once you get into it, you'll keep getting more and more moments like that. It's not as bad as getting PTSD, but it will add a whole long list of things that have the potential to make you feel pessimistic after it.

good luck with your exams, and If you are interested then when you've done them, I'll post a link.
@

 

[Deleted member 19804]

@Anarchy I am so sorry for not responding to your post. To be honest, I completely forgot. There's been so much going on lately. But it's still not nice of me to not reply, and I apologise for this.

I have a new job and they want me to work all the time. I barely have any free time left. I am exhausted and stressed out and classes haven't even started yet. I really need to learn what my boundaries are and, more importantly, respect them. I always think I can manage a lot of hard work, but it always ends badly for me. It's about time I find a new therapist.