Persona Feels Too Regressed

[Janellen]

Hi, I recently read a thread in this category called "structural disassociation psychotic part." It made me think of something that I want to post on, but I don't know if this is the right place, so please help me re-post elsewhere if this isn't the right place.

When I was reading that thread, I noticed the terms: "EP emotional person" and "ANP: apparently normal person." This was important to me because it gave me a clue that the feeling that I am not quite mature in my social-emotional development has a reason that I can maybe find a solution for. It might not totally have to do with the terms, or the thread that I read, but I think it might relate and I would really appreciate help with it.

I have been diagnosed with bipolar with psychotic features (periodic episodes), but trauma most resonates with me. So I don't know about ptsd extensively, but you could probably call what I have ptsd.

What I am experiencing is that I am worried I am not my chronological age, which is 30. I asked a therapist if I was my age once, and she said, yes I was mature and I had to be because I had to grow up really fast. And I checked in with other people, too. Like a woman at work who said, yes, she could see me like in the late twenties range.

I guess what I mean, though when I say am I my age, is not like, am a whiny and childish and wanting to party all the time. I mean, my persona, my social-emotional personality. I see some people who must be around 30, and there personas are super serious and somber, like they would never giggle or laugh much. For example, I saw a couple, and they must have been my age and the man had a beard and shoulder length hair like a musician and the woman was dressed like very trendy and upper-class and they had a kid. They seemed really serious. I see people who could be peers, and I feel like when you put us together, they are 45 and I must be 16. I saw a presentation by a man who was 34 and I thought, he seems so much older than me, like he is a different element entirely. I don't feel like the term "woman" really applies to me.

Even when I am by myself, which is a lot, since I have lived by myself since college and have a lot of unwanted loneliness; I feel like a teenager in the dialogue inside my head. Like I make little comments to myself about things that are stupid, and swear to myself and feel irritated.

Sometimes these feelings go away, like when I am at my job where i take care of people who have some cognitive and mental issues. I feel like an authority there. So I feel like this regressed personality is somewhat separate from me and and not what I am at my core, but in some ways it "is" me.

Feeling like I am not my age is extremely painful. It makes me feel really bad about myself. I don't know what worthless means because it is abstract. I don't even have words to describe how it feels. I feel somehow unacceptable. Like I there is no reason I could have self esteem or like myself because my development or perceived development makes me unacceptable. I don't feel like I can change self-esteem because I don't feel valid.

I guess since I don't know how to handle this or change it, it's like I can't just say for self esteem, like "ok, I am smart and nice, and I also am kind of sloppy and I can be shy." It's like I don't know how to escape/get out of feeling this way, so I feel like it's not a solvable self-esteem problem and I am in some kind of hell.

I think there maybe some things that play into my experience and perception. When I was out of college I lost a first job because of an episode, then gained lots of weight because of psych meds, didn't want to socialize because of the weight so I lost it and work a marginalized job that I am trying to get out of. I grew up with just a mother who neglected me, and never had close friends growing up, and because of adult challenges, still didn't grow out of that situation. So I don't have close relationships, where I feel like other people or see what they are like. Also, since I am not really in a professional job right now, and am not like, married with kids, there isn't much of an "ANP" who balances these feelings.

I don't know if this is like some type of ptsd thing and I can work out of it and find my real self. Maybe the child-like thing is an emotional problem or an extra layer of personality? If it's not maybe there are some other ways to work out of it? It looks like this might relate to some stuff here? I really would appreciate any help.

 

[Justmehere]

First step: see a trauma therapist and work out if you have PTSD or not or what is going on. Self diagnosis by Internet forum is rarely a good idea, especially for something that could be trauma related.

 

[Friday]

First off, strong second to seeking out a qualified diagnosis.

Second part, that particular thread is mostly dealing with DID issues / people on the severe end of the dissociative spectrum, whether DID or not. If you're identifying with that particular thread, it's more likely to be that you're dealing with the disassociation spectrum than with PTSD, although both coexist for some people. (Similar to how there are OCD, ADHD, & other disorders that people with PTSD deal with, except that the disassociation tends to be trauma based instead of existing as a separate diagnosis. Disassociation can do that; either exist on its own, or as part of another disorder)... Which would very much fit with your existing diagnosis of Bipolar Disorder with Psychotic Features, since there is usually quite a bit going on with the dissociative spectrum there as well ... But none of us here can diagnose you.

Last piece... People often have pretty stratified ideas of what certain ages "should" look like. People have confused my age for the past 20 years. When I was younger and had my serious-on, people have thought I was decades older than I actually was. Now that I'm older, when I've got my playful on, people think I'm far younger than I actually am. Again, decades. My uncle died in his early 70s. A huge number of the people at his funeral thought it was so sad he died so young... They thought he was early 40s at the oldest. Like me, he tends towards effervescent & passionate enthusiasm, and played "young people" sports. In fact, that's how he died, in an avalanche. LOL. Having all of his hair, in that sandy-no-color that doesn't show grey, and being in wicked good shape because of playing those sports helped!

There are a lot of pieces in what goes into someone's apparent age. Sometimes, like with DID & dissociative spectrum stuff, it can be pathological. Sometimes it can be maturity / life experience based. Sometimes it can be personality based. Sometimes it can be pure physicality. Sometimes it's cultural.

 

[Janellen]

Ok, I am not sure I have PTSD. Just as a person who has been diagnosed with a "severe mental illness." it just feels better calling it trauma, especially when I really identify with experiencing trauma. Reading things here gave me the idea that maybe the part of me that feels to young is somehow separate from me. Or I thought there may be some connection with experiencing trauma and feeling regressed.

 

[Chava]

Hi @Janellen

Third the quest for diagnosis (beyond "severe mental illness"...that doesn't sound very informative or helpful). If you missed support growing up it might be hard to feel yourself within the "grown up" world. Part of it is finding things you enjoy or feel good at and just getting involved (whether a job, club of some sort, activities through a local gym or YMCA, volunteering opportunities in your community). You will already be "valid" there because of your interest. And you can possibly find out that there is a huge range of what it means to be "grown up".

I have some regressive, protective stuff (quite avoidant so most people don't know this about me...long story). I have a very mature social self, but within that I also laugh and joke around and can act silly with colleagues or other adults. Being adult does not mean being "serious." And I've found many adults have vulnerabilities and times of feeling small and inadequate...or playful, or pouty, or ridiculous. To a point it's pretty normal. For me, finding this "adult" self started with following a personal interest (for me it was music) and so already giving myself that sense of belonging among others. For me that was very important.

But if behaviors or inability to connect with others are getting in your way (employment, relationships, just feeling okay with life) you deserve more information and a therapist who help you understand where you are at and how to move forward (whether resolving stuff, working on certain skills, or some mix). There could be attachment or developmental trauma issues, personality issues (have you taken the MMPI assessment?). Relating to people here is only one little piece of information for you. If you feel like you are dissociative, that warrants a better mental health assessment. But it also sounds like you generally lack a sense of "self" (from which you can relate to others vs compare and feel like you are on the outside or not part of life) .... which is common among many disorders...but the good news is that you can work on it.

ETA: I am forty-something and do not happen to have children. But I am still an "adult." It's also possible to be a childish parent. But I understand the adult roles help frame things where our sense of self is shaky or lost (and thirty-something is where it can feel like everyone drifts off into family-making and us single people are left a little lost without that kind of established place/role). That's why either work or membership in some organization or volunteer group, or taking some adult class, might be helpful for starters...being among adults and contributing in whatever way you feel comfortable (and if this isn't possible, getting the right mental health help and support towards appropriate skills).

 

[Janellen]

Yes, I read that finding your niche is important to becoming an adult. I have tried a lot of things to meet people. I don't have a general sense of being mature social self that is also silly. My basic persona is not adequate compared to others and it's very hurtful. I just started a new job, and no one seems like a peer, they all seem like authorities/adults compared to me. I have worked with therapists and am currently looking for one who can understand me and provide concrete guidance. I do really lack a sense of self. It's very frustrating because I tried to write a dating profile and it was really really hard to write about myself. I had a professional tell me, I don't have to have a wild social life and that's okay, but I think she missed the point. I can't really talk about myself at all in a profile. The last one I wrote said I like going to farmer's markets and going out to coffee shops. Well, that's what I did last year. There is nothing that is really constant. I might have unique things about me, but there is not a self that I share. I think having a social self is what helps you talk about yourself. If I could say, I'm a huge movie buff and my best friends always can count on me to listen and cook great meals... I don't know I don't have stuff to say like that because I don't have a lot of social experience or an identity. What I am talking about with feeling adolescent compared to people is hurtful. In a way, other people say they think I am alright, but to me, and maybe to some extent others, I feel adolescent compared with others.

 

[Chava]

If you are 30, you aren't all that fall off from the edge of adolescence. And I think it's probably okay if others seem more like authorities at a new work place...treat them like mentors and you'll get somewhere, but the trick is to also lighten up and feel like you can share opinions and ask questions at some point too. Adults swear to themselves all the time. There is not really a black-and-white division between adolescent and adult behaviors.

Based on your writing, I'm not so sure this is trauma/dissociative or more just working at limiting the comparisons and working on the skills to get engaged with your adult world and focusing on being present within yourself, not so much the comparisons (which increase inner void). Even if you are more of an "adolescent" how does that matter? How does it affect you? It sounds like the comparison game is what is affecting you, but I maybe don't understand. The feelings of inadequacy are definitely worth exploring in therapy.

I'm curious how you got labeled "severe mental illness"...was that by the same person who diagnosed bipolar? No other descriptions? Any MMPI or other formal assessments?

 

[Janellen]

Maybe letting go of comparisons and finding other ways to feel a sense of belonging could be helpful. It sounds helpful to be more engaged in the adult world, but I am not sure what that would mean. I guess feeling more adolescent affects me because feeling like my self is young makes me feel ashamed. I already feel like I cannot be with anyone who is worthwhile, only people I feel are undesirable. And I am thinking if there is a middle, if I think of it that way, I am probably there, but everyone seems to be above me; richer, more fashionable, more social more mature. Not being mature is the most isolating. Just the experience of not having a developed social self is painful withing my own self. I feel like there is a mirror showing me an inferior person, it's experiential, it's beyond any words or thoughts. When I go to a public place, it's like everyone comes off adult like and I am feel youthful. I am adult. I want to be developed. I don't know how else to explain it, but I felt the sense of being a diminutive, un-developed person so badly, that I turned around from going to the grocery store because it was too painful to just exist.

Bipolar is a "severe mental illness."

 

[Chava]

Okay, I know it's really hard to explain our subjective experience. So what I wonder is if it's the comparison habit, which can be pretty unhelpful, but which could be helped through some kind of therapy like CBT. Is your mind always focusing on these kinds of comparisons when you are around people? If so, that seems like a strong cognitive habit to be looked at and challenged.

But if you feel inwardly like a younger girl, like stuck there, then it might be something else. If you haven't had a Criterion A (near death, threat of death, sexual abuse, etc), it would not likely be PTSD. But people do have amnesia for some traumas. But it could be something developmental with or without a clear-cut label, but likely helped through finding the right therapist for you (that alone can take time).

Basically, from what I gather (and understanding I can't completely understand), is that you either could benefit from cognitive-type therapy but also working on perhaps some skills, and/or asking for a better assessment if you feel deeply, subjectively like a young girl or a "you" that never developed past a certain age. The lack of sense of self, the sense of inadequacy, and shame could relate to any of these scenarios, or many others. Based on what you describe, I'd be less hung up on possible PTSD and more curious about the root of your interactions or sense of self...whether that is developmental, cognitive, or something that could be helped through a more skills-based approach. But talking with a professional about these concerns would be helpful...and if you feel like you aren't being helped, find a different professional until something clicks for you.

Do you have shame over the bipolar diagnosis? Sometimes we can feel less "grown up" for having a mental health diagnosis, but many adults, including many who appear to have it all, also have mental health issues.

Have you looked into trying practices that help you work on self-acceptance? Even just type "self acceptance" into google and see what jumps out at you...any useful ideas or things to read or reflect on. ?? Sometimes classes like an art class or yoga class (for me it depends a bit on the teacher) helps me connect to "me" and accept myself as I am....that actually has to come before moving forward anyway. The comparison stuff will keep you stuck.

 

[Janellen]

I think CBT could help because I recently spent some time with a younger adult and noticed they were a few little differences, like they just communicated in a more unsure way like a younger person would, and it made me feel more secure that in some ways I was an adult. But I don't think these are vain comparisons, such as "That person is fashionable, why am I not like that?" It's more like when I got to get my haircut and there was a woman doing the transaction and here we are both "adults" but somehow, I'm not. It made me cry the entire night. It's like a kid with down syndrome who goes to school and see's their mental abilities aren't what others are. I'm not saying I'm better or worse than other people, I'm saying I look at an adult, and I can see they are an entity that I am not.

It could be trauma, because although I didn't have a single incident, I went through prolonged neglect which can be a part of what is called complex trauma. I did have a "break down" when I was 19, and sometimes, especially since I haven't had a lot of experiences like having my first boyfriend (I'm 30) having a lot of memories doing things with friends since high school, taking more risks, and having more experiences, I feel like all is between me and 19 is passing time.

Thanks for the idea of a sense of self, that is something that I think will be very useful. Thank you for the suggestions of CBT, skill-based approach and developmental issues. I don't have shame over my diagnosis, unless it comes down to having to disclose that to people.

I see a new therapist on Tuesday. I plan to keep looking if she isn't the right match. Changing perceptions might be helpful, but I don't just simply want to stop comparing, because that to me is like turning the car around before I get somewhere. I have tried self acceptance. A professional gave me a book on self- compassion, and part of it said, "imagine yourself as a more mature person, in a sense of being wise from knowing how life works and having experiences." That just made me cry because I haven't had a lot of life experiences. But mostly, I don't see the point in accepting myself, because "not being an adult" is truly disturbing and it makes me feel it's not possible to be okay. That's what I mean by being in hell. I can't have self-esteem because it seems like there is nothing I can do about this, because it's how I "am." Only on some level, though. Maybe I can find some way to start growing and feeling like an "adult." Maybe thinking about it differently could help, too. I guess it it something i would like to address first.

 

[Chava]

Hope it goes well with new therapist. Hopefully you can bring many of these notes, concerns, and questions. Neglect can lead to what is sometimes called developmental or complex trauma, but the symptom set is often quite severe. Neglect can also very understandably lead to low self esteem and lacking sense of self (we develop our young selves largely in a self-other attachment relationship and through being "seen").

If you think you are dissociative that warrants discussion with therapist and diagnosis (noting since you posted this in dissociation forum). If not, this is probably stuff a good therapist can help you work through in cognitive and skills-based ways...like help you structure more positive experience and feelings about yourself. A positive therapeutic relationship can help too.

That's good news. It sounds like you generally have very poor self esteem. That does not mean you have a disorder separate from the bipolar. Maybe you do, maybe not. But low self-esteem and lacking sense of self (as your major complaints), though very difficult, does not really sound like PTSD or CPTSD/complex trauma. But hopefully a trained therapist can help you sort that out. Your concerns and struggles would not be less valid if they were not trauma-based. The neglect stuff is likely connected, but I'd assume a present cognitive-skills-approach would be more helpful than what CPTSD people often do through working with specific or ongoing traumas and nervous system regulation.

Like your experience with a younger person, you can still develop some self-reference through positive connections to others (and hopefully less comparison as you go). Find whatever ways you feel okay working with or being around other people. We all feel "adult" very quickly in relation to working with younger people, whether through work, volunteering, or hanging out with extended family. Those kinds of experiences of reference are helpful. It sounds like you just haven't had enough self esteem to fully cross the threshold into "adulthood", which isn't all that uncommon in 20s-early 30s, but hopefully a new therapist can help you work on that through reframing thinking, working on skills, and creating the experiences needed to help you feel like yourself, who is also an "adult."

 

[Chava]

One other thought...it sounds like you operate a lot from an external locus of control (you could look up "external or internal locus of control" if you aren't familiar with it). Example being giving up on acceptance stuff because one therapist gave you some compassion cards and one of them made you feel bad. Find other cards. Other activities. Articles online. Books. Meditation classes, yoga classes, even something like archery. You don't have to wait for an authority to tell you what to read, what to think, what you can find helpful. You can look more into self-acceptance stuff and there might be ideas that feel easier for you (I have a hard time with this stuff so had to go at it from an easy approach).

Anyway, this too is not really a trauma thing but a sort of developmental thing that you can work on changing. Just notice when you think you need approval or direction or instructions from an authority or who you perceive to be a real adult. In a new workplace, it is good to play the newcomer role and ask for direction. But in other areas, especially in your own time, you can practice making decisions and looking for resources and activities that help you feel more in charge of your life. Finding a new therapist is a really good start. And that is an "adult" move...so good work checking into new therapy (and hope it's helpful). Sorry for all the words here...