Piecing things together

[HealingMama]

They really do and its not just marriage. Some put little as possible to be civil, chores, sex, etc



I changed when I was 30. Did an about face. I became my opposite. ..but that could be the PTSD. I don't know but

Yeah, I was always afraid to commit to the level of marriage. I prefer to have an easy out. It calms me down then I act better. Funny thing I once talked to my husband about divorcing on paper so that we could get along better and he said if that will really work he would support it.

The stone fell out of my wedding ring and I just never got it replaced because I feel less trapped without a ring.

This guy should be with someone that wants to be married. I feel bad for him.

 

[Deanna]

Yeah, I was always afraid to commit to the level of marriage. I prefer to have an easy out. It calms me down then I act better. Funny thing I once talked to my husband about divorcing on paper so that we could get along better and he said if that will really work he would support it.

The stone fell out of my wedding ring and I just never got it replaced because I feel less trapped without a ring.

This guy should be with someone that wants to be married. I feel bad for him.

Well, at least you're getting it out. That's good. I once thought I could be gay but I don't think so.

Edit: just independent

 

[HealingMama]

Well, at least you're getting it out. That's good. I once thought I could be gay but I don't think so.

I think I could be gay too ?
But that's been in my head since I was a child. Not necessarily gay but I enjoy women.

I really enjoy a committed relationship but not one where people take each other for granted and marriage just invites that.

Like, you don't realize the value of what you have when you do that. And it goes both ways. It's hard to recognize the worth of something you haven't had to keep working for.

There should be a perpetual awareness that your partner could walk away at any time. It keeps us from taking life out on the one person that should be on our side with us.

If you're married it's so hard to just go, that nobody has that perpetual awareness.

I'd love to meet someone that doesn't operate that way but in my experience most men at least seem to. Whew, ok now that that's over on to the next thing. But your devotion to a partner should never just be a box you check off. It should be a sacred effort to continue to renew together, to explore the mystery, to grow together.

My expectations are too high for normal human relationships. I would probably be overwhelmed and scared if I ever actually met someone that seems to share this sentiment. But it would fulfill a hunger in me that runs quite deep.

 

[HealingMama]

@somerandomguy I know you are a research person and I saw your Gottman link. Are you aware of any app based programs or web based self-help programs that implement Gottman techniques and principles?

My husband has agreed to pick a system together and work the recommendations pending the time when we could try marital counseling again. I saw a web platform based on Emotion Focused therapy and wonder if there is something similar based on Gottman. I want to find options and let my husband pick the one he likes/can relate to the most.

 

[somerandomguy]

Well, there's this: Gottman Card Decks App - Couples | The Gottman Institute
I have it on my phone, but I haven't actually ever used it.

There's also this but it's pricey: The Art and Science of Love Home Workshop - Couples | The Gottman Institute

I honestly think that any marriage counselor worth his/her salt will have a good knowledge of Gottman principles.

 

[HealingMama]

Well, there's this: Gottman Card Decks App - Couples | The Gottman Institute
I have it on my phone, but I haven't actually ever used it.

There's also this but it's pricey: The Art and Science of Love Home Workshop - Couples | The Gottman Institute

I honestly think that any marriage counselor worth his/her salt will have a good knowledge of Gottman principles.

I agree with you, but we aren't ready for couples counseling again especially since insurance doesn't cover it, so I'm looking into self-help options. Thank you for some products to consider.

 

[HealingMama]

So, we talked briefly this morning. I really do not want to keep trying. I am not getting most of my fundamental needs met , I feel gaslighted and unsafe, and he's not turned toward me to solve things which Gottman says is necessary.

He doesn't "turn toward" and doesn't "attune" and I'm left incredibly bitter that I have to manage so much because of his ADHD and whatever else leads to him not taking care of things proactively, and then he ALSO doesn't manage conflict or communication or emotions the way that things could work more smoothly. His distancing, withdrawing, defensiveness and lack of responsibility have created a lot of resentment in me.

I get it. Guys want to win. They want praise and appreciation and to not feel pressured or controlled. I have bombarded him with negative feedback at times because I want a partner not a teenage son to wrangle. I need to pick my battles.

I slept terribly last night. Mostly wrestling with the idea that I feel like my marriage is over. Facing the reality that it's broken and I'm running out of energy to fix it.

I avoided him last night. He tried to talk to me a couple of times. I don't know how to read that. I need direct, not subtext. He hates to be direct and put himself out there. He's got a lot of learned helplessness so he doesn't "chase." Why would he chase someone that can't look past his flaws. I think I need a way to stop being perfectionistic about my marriage.

Anyway. We discussed trying a bit longer because I did say I'd try counseling once more after he's gotten his own. I am not hopeful that anything can help us enough at this point but when my son looks at me angry that his dad didn't call on his birthday, or notices my stress from trying to single parent as he gets older, I need to know that I did absolutely everything I could. I need to know that ending things was the right choice, not a reactive choice to my difficulty with commitment.

I tossed and turned last night feeling my attachment for him dissolving in a visceral way. Hardening my heart.

Then, as usual, I have to take the lead. Sigh. How can I relax into my feminine energy when he won't step into his male energy.

We discussed how neither of us is motivated to do anything. He says the only problem for him is the fighting.

He still doesn't see that as long as you don't communicate well, and as long as he's not actively managing his ADHD, there will be conflict whether it's open conflict or cold distance. I said this is why they say try to keep having sex. Otherwise you just get a bunch of negativity from each other.

I don't know if I can come back from this. I feel like by the time he understands that I have a point in what I keep trying to communicate, it's going to be too late to get my feelings back.

But I'm trying once more because... I don't know. I probably still love him. He's good with our child. I owe him this effort, even though I don't want to make this effort.

 

[somerandomguy]

He tried to talk to me a couple of times.

Have you been turning toward him consistently?

One of the things Gottman says is that one person has to be the catalyst and stop the cycle. It sucks, but if you want to save your marriage, you're going to have to be the one doing it.

Can you forget the past? If you're asking him to forget when you "bombarded him with negative feedback at times," you're going to have to be the one to forget the past first.

If you can make the change and consistently apply Gottman towards him ... he'll probably respond. And if he can't, then you have an answer.

 

[HealingMama]

Have you been turning toward him consistently?

One of the things Gottman says is that one person has to be the catalyst and stop the cycle. It sucks, but if you want to save your marriage, you're going to have to be the one doing it.

Can you forget the past? If you're asking him to forget when you "bombarded him with negative feedback at times," you're going to have to be the one to forget the past first.

If you can make the change and consistently apply Gottman towards him ... he'll probably respond. And if he can't, then you have an answer.

Yeah, I've tried. I stopped bringing up the past to justify my actions. I started picking my battles. I stopped instant name calling. I started making sure I also express appreciation though it's not always a full 5:1 ratio. I stopped pursuing when we had arguments. At least I felt like I did.

Part of the issue is my own disorganized identity/attachment where I want connection but then give one word answers or get locked in my head or also just as a grown up wife self lose patience with all his old patterns. He says I don't give him time to talk. He takes a really long time to gather his thoughts. My life pace is just faster. It's very hard to slow down and wait on him. But I try.

You said if I want to save my marriage I should stop the cycle. I don't know if I do want to save my marriage. I've got some chronic anger from chronically unmet needs and I don't really want to make more efforts without seeing efforts from him. He just says he's too tired. I backed off and he didn't fill that space in any way. It's already taking a lot to say let's try one more thing. I just don't have it in me to work harder than him anymore.

 

[somerandomguy]

He takes a really long time to gather his thoughts. My life pace is just faster. It's very hard to slow down and wait on him. But I try.

Sounds like me (slow) vs. my wife (fast). She forgets I take a lots longer to process emotional things than she does. But I can't possibly unless she gives me the space.

I've got some chronic anger from chronically unmet needs and I don't really want to make more efforts without seeing efforts from him.

Understandable. It makes sense that you've set a time limit of a year. Does he know you have one year left in you?

I don't want to read things that aren't there, but you sound like maybe you have a very forceful personality. My wife does, and when she turns it on me full blast, it can be hard for me to do anything but try to isolate because I see it as anger, even when it's not. I don't like anger. I have to get away from it right away.

 

[HealingMama]

Sounds like me (slow) vs. my wife (fast). She forgets I take a lots longer to process emotional things than she does. But I can't possibly unless she gives me the space.

Understandable. It makes sense that you've set a time limit of a year. Does he know you have one year left in you?

I don't want to read things that aren't there, but you sound like maybe you have a very forceful personality. My wife does, and when she turns it on me full blast, it can be hard for me to do anything but try to isolate because I see it as anger, even when it's not. I don't like anger. I have to get away from it right away.

I can be demanding, yes.

Mostly about stuff we have discussed a bunch already, stuff that I feel he sees as my burden to carry if he's not keeping it in mind himself, and I can be demanding about justice issues. I can over-talk things. Because I feel if he heard me fully the first time and respected where I was coming from, he wouldn't continue to do the thing I've said causes me pain.

I can be intense. If he brings active energy it makes me calm down. Occasionally he gets into a fix things around the house mode and I find it really soothing. Usually, if I stop, he is also stopped. Life doesn't magically happen if all the adults stop. So if I stop and he realizes things need to happen and takes that over, I feel secure and respected as an equal or at least like we are a team. It is the opposite of how he was raised - man works then comes home and sits while wife does literally everything but make the money.

So yeah he is easily flooded and I'm often personalizing his lapses and lack of proactive energy. I can't rest until the work is all done, including both practical and relational work. It pisses me off that he sees no problem with "rest/play first, work later" especially when ADHD means he loses track of time and doesn't finish things.

So yeah like I said... I over-talk ??

 

[HealingMama]

I like to spread my neediness around. On another board someone recommended this book Dead Link Removed

And I am just so exasperated now. This book basically says men don't want to talk about their feelings so the solution is to stop trying.

This plays into the idea that his need to avoid intimacy is more important than my need to have presence and the safety of verbal connection.

Women learn to navigate the world of men in so many ways. If men really value us for the polarity we offer, then why can't there be a bit of extra effort to join us in our world.

I think men being socialized to be stoic tough guys causes a lot of issues. If we socialize our boys to be comfortable having emotions, labeling them, rather than shaming them for having any vulnerability, I think women like me wouldn't get so upset.

I find the premise of this book sexist and feeding male entitlement. If I can learn to tolerate board games, talking about facts and ideas devoid of any relational context, then my partner can work on self regulation and sharing feelings. Vulnerability breeds connection. This book basically says just shut up and everything will be fine.

Tried that. It definitely calms him down, but it breeds resentment because I'm left starving for the manner in which I connect. If men connect with "touch, activities, sex and routines," then my effort to meet in those spaces should be reciprocated. It's not about turning men into women. We are all emotional beings. Men decided they can emote for sports but nowhere else I guess? (Not all men but the stereotyped conditioning this book is based on says so)

Anyway. What a stupid book. If I have to bend and flex then he can too. It's only fair. You don't feel competent at something without practice. This book says eh, he feels incompetent, we'll be sure he never has to practice.

I'm sure my husband would love it if I bought this way of thinking but it isn't fair that one person should accommodate the other. There should be reciprocity and mutuality.