Quick one before I get to see my therapist

[grit]

I have had really really great few breakthroughs lately. I mean so good but god...you know this is a well deep well indeed.

I have covered panic split. The splitting split. the camotose split. the fawning split maybe. Major ones. What I mean by this is I have seen CLEARLY these sides of me going off the dependent in therapy and literally woke up to it. For those not familiar with me (my PTSD is mainly severe dissociation).

I have many parts. baby parts that are so primitive that when I was young, I was called often by the same person causing me grief that I had temper! How dare of her? But...

Anyhow, I visited my family last week and was so on gaurd (even though I was so good and IN THE HERE AND NOW) prior. I feel now the fighting side is rearing her head. I am very empathic to myself and my many sides. I have been compassionate.

But this is the pickle. I need to see my sides in action rather than stopping them inside of me. I need to fully experience them in order to fully woke up on them and realize I am no longer there. it is really hard to stop a dissociate split without fully experiencing.

Now how do I experience fighting without insulting my therapy? I can resist? I have been biting my lip all day at work. I took a nap (a bad thing I know when I am super exhausted from keeping things inside). I do not want to fight with my therapist. I feel like I may act out like crazy person. I always tell him listen, that was transference, I respect you. I was there not here. I did that because I always woke up in the transference. this is the only way I healed so far...even on the verge of almost going into psychosis. I woke up and was like What? I could not believe how much I am THERE!

I am very emphatic to those diagnosed with BPD and I really dislike how a lot of therapists do not like them because they probably act out their fight side and no one accepted them so far.

The thing is I know I fight good. I can fight like a menace with my husband but I never disrespect him or go crazy but my husband brings up my attachment side not my defense side as in the therapist.

By writing this out, I am realizing since I went crazy already in therapy few times, this too shall pass. But I really feel I am ashamed to act like a fight person in public!

I am blaahah now and losing steam but does anyone know what I am talking about and could shed some personal story about it?

I almost did not want to go. I did not go one time and the next session, boom, I was in a panic mode where I went so high just to come down at the last minute and woke up fully from the fog of the trauma. Because it was so jarring and sudden, I do not think I will ever experience that. I realize it is portion of me not all of me as I always thought in the past.

I just feel I will be resisting this fight side so much, I may explode! inappropriately too! In panic my fear was psychosis. In fight, my fear is damaging the relationship beyond repair. The only person who sees this side is probably my husband.

Now I feel my fight side is very intelligent and almost as good as my functional side. I am having hard time separating them apart. I feel lost in it. I feel I am going in a circle here.

sorry for the long post.

thank you for anyone who can give me some reassurance!

I am suffocating here!

 

[grit]

I would like to close this post by saying: wow I was scared when I wrote that because it does not even make sense except the last few lines.

Well my fear was acknowledged yesterday. The relationship with my therapist is as of now beyond repair.

I had this therapist since January. I was really in a bad place when I came to him because the therapist before him completely broke me down. In a irony way, I feel so much stronger and healthier now if I have to find another therapist.

After three months of weekly visits, I told my therapist I wanted to do every other week. He did not say a word. He just accepted as face value. Now that I am coming out of the fog, I realized when I made that decision, I was under an extreme regression/depression and had high frustration and thought therapy was too much for me. I am realizing now that was not the case because I went on to find a group therapy as well. So having more therapy or normal therapy time was not the culprit.
The culprit, as I realized, was I have a side of me that wants to punish those who hurt me. This is a painful realization for me. So I shared this with my therapist yesterday in a calm and collected way. I said, I feel I made that decision to change the therapy frame under duress and high frustration and my inner child probably felt I was being punished or in pain and I retaliated by cutting therapy short. Writing this makes me so sad because I can feel how I must have been as a child under the control of my mother and my siblings (whom we fought viciously). So I am not surprised I could be sadistic a bit or wanted to hurt him by limiting the therapy, I am saddened to see it working still and I am compassionate to see this almost basic animal survival thing. I am raelly lucky to know this so I am conscious of it now. This should have been a great therapy session but no! Everything went down crazy after this.

I asked my therapist why he did not say anything or explore this decisions further before. He became very defensive about this and completely took it personally. On a side note, I told my husband, it would be very unusual the therapist did not see this issue if not for anything else for the fact he is losing business. So I felt the therapist must have feeling about this that he did not want to share it with me and I wanted to know if there were feelings he could not share it with me.

He said that he did not explore because he thought that I would be upset. OK. I made a mistake of not asking him what he thought would happen if I was upset. But then he went on to say I have a choice to see others. All of sudden and out of the blue he went on to talk about other possibilities and he started to roll his eyes when I talked. When I asked why he was rolling his eyes? He said he was thinking. I said maybe that is why I am having problem in the relationship because you are thinking when I am talking rather than listen to me. Boom a bomb goes off! His whole body language changed. He started to give the death stare...very uncomfortable.

And as the time getting wind down and I am still hopeful this is a huge hickup but fine...it is good to have a hot therapy once a while. I am still very cool and collected...not once did I feel hot headed (my usual thing...so I am feeling safe). I made a comment that it was OK for me to confront and ask difficult questions and he had the right not to answer but I need to feel I can ask anything and be told no or yes. I also said I find it difficult to discuss anything if he was bringing up ultimatum referring to ending the therapy or the relationship. I made sure I am not the one bringing up ending but noticing he was bringing up ending as if this is the only solution. I even said, I prefer to work with one therapist rather than many because I want to pass few hurdles to get to more complex sides of me. I, since, processed that he was so frustrated and got lost in his own issues and jumped to the end of things. I have really good marriage and I learned no matter how heated a fight gets, getting divorce or leaving is not part of a fight. Those are determined in some other ways. I learned this consciously so a therapist to jump at termination like conversations made me feel wow! this guy losing it or am I losing it?

Then I saw the time at 50 and said. Oh I guess my time is up and started to look down to get my helmet. Then he says, ignoring again the time boundary (which he has done few times that made notice and wonder but I never brought it up), he had something to say. I waited.

He said:
"A person gave me an advice once. That person said, I will never be right for every body."

Because now we are overtime, and I do not remember fully but I could be standing up almost, I realize this therapist has lost his mind. I mean that was one thought he could have kept in his head. That was an advice given to him by a supervisor saying to him, sometimes, you are not right for every client...BUT DID HE HAVE THE RIGHT TO TELL ME THAT?

I stopped him right there at this time, I actually interrupted him and said:

"Thank you so much for that comment, but I really gotta go because our time is over." I felt a normal person, let alone a therapist, should not be giving comments that are not smoothing over the session or the contact. I felt at that time he was basically telling me not to come back as a client.

I am not sure now what this is all about? Was he having his worst day?He did mentioned one time he had therapy all his life? and he mentioned yesterday that yeah he did not do much of disclosure with me...which I thought I do not really need a lot of disclosure, just honest feedback in feelings (countertransferences) so I can learn something about how others feel around me at certain times.

Anyhow, yesterday was challenging. I do not see him again until another two weeks now. So I am left with wondering but in a weird way, I feel for the first time, I spoke up in a calm, collected, and cool way without raising my voice once or sweating. So in a way I feel great loss if I lose this therapist, on another I feel can I work with him anymore (his issues are too much for me), and on another hand, I feel maybe I should not be rigid and we all have our issues.

I am feeling very conflicted.

Thank you for reading. Sorry for the long posts.

 

[digger]

He said:
"A person gave me an advice once. That person said, I will never be right for every body."

It sounds to me that he is recognising that he might not be the best fit for you as a therapist - that you might benefit more from seeing someone else.

BUT DID HE HAVE THE RIGHT TO TELL ME THAT?

In my opinion, sharing this with you is better, and more professional, than ignoring it and continuing providing therapy for you that will at best be just not a good fit and not of much benefit to you, and at worst, damaging to you.

He said that he did not explore because he thought that I would be upset. OK. I made a mistake of not asking him what he thought would happen if I was upset. But then he went on to say I have a choice to see others. All of sudden and out of the blue he went on to talk about other possibilities

I don't know if there is a communication issue between you - this to me reads that you were not happy with the way he handled you asking for fewer sessions previously, and this is him responding that that was how he felt it was best handled at the time. That he is maybe saying that his way may not be a good fit for you and that he can help you find someone else if that's what you would prefer. Obviously I don't know the tone of any of this, but what you've shared here isn't sounding like a threat or an ultimatum to end therapy?

With regards to how he handled you asking to reduce your sessions previously, it sounds like you wanted him to challenge you on that and ask you not to reduce your sessions. It could also be seen though as respect for your autonomy that he did not do that? I remember early in my therapy, I often struggled to stay for the whole session. I would say, I want to go now, and my T would instantly end the session and let me leave. I won't lie, there were times I wanted her to say no to me, make me stay, challenge, or even just ask, my reasons. She never did, and in time, I realised that wasn't because she didn't care about me staying or leaving, or wasn't concerned by my distress, it was because she cared more that I was heard and taken seriously when I said no to something. That she was acknowledging that this was my process, and that it was important that I felt I had control over it. For someone that hasn't been allowed much control in their life, that's a big thing.
I don't know if perhaps that's something behind how your therapist treated your request to reduce sessions - just offering a different perspective.

If you are needing someone who challenges you in more direct ways, it sounds like he is thinking he might not be the best person to offer you that - perhaps that doesn't line up with how he works?

 

[grit]

Thank you so much digger for taking time to give me another perspective. You are right in many aspect especially the "challenging" me aspect and "respecting my autonomy".
You are right about not knowing the tone of the conversation and I can honestly say to me I felt he was defensive and of course I was defensive so that could just cancel each other out..

I am OK if therapist decides we are not fit. I am really OK with this (luckily this is not a trauma related area for me) but what I do not get this if you are truly a professional, and you feel, you honestly cannot help this person, why not bring this up? Why does it have to come up at heated moments. My assumption (wrongly or rightly) is the therapist is at more good space to determine this than a client at most times. I did hear him telling me he is not fit at last comment that is why I thought I should leave now. he already made up his mind. But the guessing game is not kosher to me. maybe I am off and not see the full picture.

now because he did not really say it directly, I think you should find someone else, I feel obligated to see him in two weeks and let him articulate this in a calm and clear way not so ambiguous way. I do not feel threatened by him so I feel safe enough to hear him terminate me. But I do not feel I need to terminate because also I would like the experience of being terminated if it comes to that. I rather challenge myself and risk of rejection than risk of making another decision based on my thoughts alone without clear direction.

Also there are few things that I feel are not my responsibilities of a client alone:
Therapy frame - how often to meet. This should be set at the beginning and negotiated when it changes to find if it is progress and such. (as I said, I was under extreme duress when I decided that) so in order to remove any doubt, it requires discussion not to change minds but for the therapist to ensure if there are progress or withdraw issues. It is like termination, one does not just cut a client or therapist loose. it is good to discuss about termination and I feel I am not getting that but I am getting innuendos.

the second one is the fee - my therapist charges less amount and my understanding was this will be 6 months long but so far he has not ask me about this and I felt it was not my place to bring it up even though I felt he should be getting full price. (maybe this is the underlying issue) I do not know. Now I feel if he is afraid of me (which is weird because as far as I know we never had heated conversation at all or much of conversation).

The other thing that a client should never keep track of is time - he many times started to talk right on the 50min mark and I felt actually awkward and also I felt, I need to acknowledge this for me but it was not really my duty and responsibility to keep track of time. However yesterday, when he started to talk like that after the session, I needed him to stop and wait until next time or send me email.

In all of these, I actually do not feel angry or even leaving him if he could come to his senses. But I also feel perhaps this is a major rupture and that is OK too. It is a great loss because I really did progress a big margin in many areas in the short time and I will share with him even if he terminates me but it is a loss.

I do truly appreciated you gave me another perspective though and I still think there are many more and that is why I feel I will show up in two weeks unless other things happened in the meantime.

Thank you,

 

[grit]

I would say, I want to go now, and my T would instantly end the session and let me leave. I won't lie, there were times I wanted her to say no to me, make me stay, challenge, or even just ask, my reasons. She never did, and in time, I realised that wasn't because she didn't care about me staying or leaving, or wasn't concerned by my distress, it was because she cared more that I was heard and taken seriously when I said no to something. That she was acknowledging that this was my process, and that it was important that I felt I had control over it. For someone that hasn't been allowed much control in their life, that's a big thing.

On another note, did your therapist follow up with you on the next session? or what happened was just forgotten?

I am really curious how does a person (therapist or not) balance respecting autonomy and actually being there for the person enough to feel you can ask some questions without assuming anything just to make sure you are OK.

 

[digger]

The other thing that a client should never keep track of is time

Absolutely agree on this. And I do think it was not good timing on his part to bring that comment up when he did as it didn't leave time for discussion. I'm glad you will go back in two weeks though to talk all this through and hopefully at least get some more clarity and closure on things this has brought up for you.

Also there are few things that I feel are not my responsibilities of a client alone:
Therapy frame - how often to meet. This should be set at the beginning and negotiated when it changes to find if it is progress and such. (as I said, I was under extreme duress when I decided that) so in order to remove any doubt, it requires discussion not to change minds but for the therapist to ensure if there are progress or withdraw issues. It is like termination, one does not just cut a client or therapist loose. it is good to discuss about termination and I feel I am not getting that but I am getting innuendos.

This is a less black and white one (for me), I think personally it is a good thing that he respected your choice, but I think perhaps it would have been better if he'd checked with you after a few sessions on the new timescale, how you felt that was working out. It sounds like you gained some really good insight for yourself in that time of what was actually behind you asking for fewer sessions and him asking how the fewer sessions were working for you would have given you an earlier opportunity to explore that more with him.

On another note, did your therapist follow up with you on the next session? or what happened was just forgotten?

I'm trying to think back now as I have been seeing this therapist for a few years and this was quite early on the relationship when really were still getting to know each other. If I recall, she wasn't the one who brought it up, but allowed me to in my own time. I know we have discussed it but I can't remember exactly when, or the circumstances of that discussion. With hindsight I think it gave me the opportunity to see her demonstrate, and model, consistency and respect of boundaries. I won't pretend that there weren't times though when I wasn't confused, or upset, by her not challenging me on it. Again though, with hindsight, that in itself helped me to reflect on what I really meant/what was going on for me, when I felt like I wanted to leave the session - in a similar way to you examining why you asked for less sessions.
I'm not sure that if she had challenged me on it more directly, I wouldn't have been resistant to that at the time and got upset instead that she wasnt letting me leave! ;) I do think that her giving me space to figure it out for myself was ultimately a good thing.

Now, I think if I asked her directly could she check with me that I actually wanted to leave when I said I did, she would do that.

I'm not sure if I answered your question well enough? Let me know if not.

 

[grit]

I understand you could not remember the details but I get what you are saying and I really appreciated.

I am also from extremely abusive and absolutely not autonomy or even person-hood background so in essence, I actually felt good I could express anger or annoyance or challenge the therapist without getting "hot"...or getting that weird feeling in my stomach.

I also realize this sort of things (this kind of ruptures) are normal. I mean I am married and trust me we have crazy fights but we acknowledge and repair when we got off the horses! I feel similar attitude can be applied here even though I know they are not the same and I may just clam up for good...but I am really keeping open mind because I feel relief I could be asking something so personal and not get entitled or hot headed. I am experiencing a sort of relief and peace I have not known before (after a fight).

but I will go in two weeks and see what is going on.
I just remember, I told him whenever I experienced empathy failure from him, (which I did not acknowledge it to him before until yesterday), I actually built strength in my self structure. In a weird way, whenever I needed soothing and he just sat there, I went into panic but found the strength to pull myself back and completely found I had that strength and did not need to look for it outside of me. Weird!!!!!! but never would I be able to experience in that intensity again. More like normal range. That range was like how I felt as a child and then I found my adult self saying it is OK I am here for you!

healing when articulated sounds so simple but I was scared that I was going to die that day! I feel healing for me is to experience similar trauma like feelings as an adult and live to witness it or tell it and it just loses its grip. So he did help me by becoming my witness when I was breaking down but it is really jarring when the therapist melts down. but I was super conscious not to go to the care taking route either. Boundaries boundaries!

 

[grit]

wow! ooh my! my dear digger! (what a name!)

I just had lunch and went to a park and sat under a tree for 45 min to relax and reflect your comments, my state of mind, the experience from yesterday and I am having second thoughts.

As I examined all feelings to this situation, I realized few feelings that were contradictory. Without any particular order, I felt good that I said my peace and dealt with it like an adult. I also felt suspicious maybe I just vomited out but did not deal with it and if I get another therapist, I will do the same - big doubts circling around. Then I thought, maybe I am really bad person who makes even a therapist have a melt down (this was more or less fleeting and did not stick on me much). Then I thought maybe and this is far off scenario in my mind, that perhaps the therapist was acting so weird and out of character because that is how I was portraying outward. Maybe he was responding to my insides, after all, I wrote this first post here yesterday before I saw him. And I seemed to be going through some sort of crisis and was spewing word salad.

Could it be that I was seething and vehement inside and he responded to that without filter or without therapeutic holding?

I really felt I was the therapist and he was the client and even that is why I hold back to fall into the take care pattern because I thought wow! not my place to therapize the therapist.

I feel this was a case of projective identification. Where I projected my fighting ugly inside to him and he did not protect himself. and if he did, maybe I would have acted as he did and maybe even walked out. I feel the last one is more likely.

Now I feel really bad. I also feel this side of me is most close to to my also healthy side (hence why I could not separate the two split parts). Panic and depression sides were too pronounced fro me to confuse to my core. This fighting part is too close to the core of me and it makes perfect sense in relation to my past. My mom was so bad at just beating us, biting us, tying us so we do not hit her back (by fake accident because we were too scared to really hit her back even when we were taller and stronger than her), and putting electricity under our finger nails. or waking us up by pulling our hair, or yelling or just terrorizing us. and the way I talked to the therapist, I definitely was channeling my mother. I even feel now my body was positioned like her acting all mighty and powerful!

I mean I can see I could not make the therapist do any of the stuff he did exactly but I can also see myself in him and wonder if that is what happened?

I do not usually experience shame (I feel now so much of it) and wonder if I will feel more shame as I take off more masks.

I hope he is OK. he is really a good therapist but I also feel I am this damaged that my insides can be that powerful and nasty to turn a normal man into a mini monster. I just feel yuck now.

Thank you for letting me put this into writing. it makes me feel better that I can clearly see this split separate from me but I can also see it is really truly a huge part of my character.

I hope I feel better soon. I cannot carry on like this forever. The burden of my childhood is too big to carry anymore.

Love you all and this is really a great site.

PS. Thanks Digger for exploring this with me. Your input really made think deeper than just my view and the surface of the issue. you are absolutely an angel (I am not religious) but in the grand scheme of things.

Love you!

 

[Skywatcher]

I just read through these posts and am of the opinion that your therapist felt counter transference from your session and couldn’t instantly manage that. His “not a match” comment may have been more of him thinking out loud. Maybe he will bring you a list of recommendations to your next appointment. I’m sorry you went through that stuff with your mom.

 

[Friday]

On a side note, I told my husband, it would be very unusual the therapist did not see this issue if not for anything else for the fact he is losing business. So I felt the therapist must have feeling about this that he did not want to share it with me and I wanted to know if there were feelings he could not share it with me.

I’m reading a whole LOT of mind reading and assumption of responsibility (ie not allowing other people to make their own decisions) in both of these posts. But this is just a perfect example of it.

You asked for fewer sessions & he agreed. From that very simple act...

You have determined why he did that, what he thinks/feels about it, why he shouldn’t have done that, what he thinks/feels about that, and a whole series of ulterior motivations for not telling you all of those things that you’re imagining he thought, felt, & was motivated by. :confused:

I don’t know your story, but will lay money on the table at least part of it involved managing an abuser (having to think 3 steps beyond for every action, interaction, and moment of the day to try and keep them happy -at best- or prepare yourself for whatever hell is coming).

The thing is... while that kinda/sorta/sometimes works with abusers (and is the FOUNDATION for the “its all my fault” defense mechanism)... it only kinda/sorta/sometimes works because we know them so well. It doesn’t work in 99% of the rest of life. Both because we don’t know other people as well as we know our parents, spouses, prison guards that we live with day in and day out (so we're Purely in our imaginations, not just imaginary futures, but imaginary histories & personalities & thoughts/emotions/motivations) ... and because Mindreading ain’t a thing. Keen observation is, but even the best observer on the planet can’t reach into your mind and read your thoughts.

So, using the example above, where you cite losing business... I can think of about half a dozen completely different reasons, where losing business doesn’t matter. Like he may be a decent person who is morally opposed to squeezing clients for cash / bilking them (ie arguing that they come more often, not because it’s what is best for them therapeutically, but because it’s what is best for his wallet). Or he may have a waitlist of clients (your $100 is identical to someone else’s $100). Or he may be independently wealthy, and not need the cash. Or he may be facing some health issues (or nearing a tax bracket) and looking to cut down his hours. Or, or, or. There are a huuuuuuuuge number of reasons why it’s not better for him to keep you coming every week. <<< But it’s super telling that where your mind jumped to? Is that he would make a decision about what’s best for him, instead of what’s best for you.

"A person gave me an advice once. That person said, I will never be right for every body."

Because now we are overtime, and I do not remember fully but I could be standing up almost, I realize this therapist has lost his mind. I mean that was one thought he could have kept in his head. That was an advice given to him by a supervisor saying to him, sometimes, you are not right for every client...BUT DID HE HAVE THE RIGHT TO TELL ME THAT?

It’s his business & his schedule. If he wanted to take the session over time? That’s his right / his choice. You don’t have to watch his clock, and tell him when he needs to end the session.

If you want to end the session, that’s one thing. But deciding for him how he’s allowed to dictate his own schedule, is his job. Not yours.

I did hear him telling me he is not fit at last comment that is why I thought I should leave now. h

To be fair? You cut him off. You have no idea what he was going to say next, where he was going to go with it, or how he intended to end it, because you insisted that the session was over & you were done.

He respected your choice to end things, but that was your choice.

 

[grit]

Thanks Friday.

I am in therapy for precisely all that and plus. If you can notice this with your cool head so can he and so do I know.

The point is not why am I crazy but why did he not control himself? Here I go again maybe this is all in my head. I will provide update in two weeks.

Leaving at the end I really needed to go.. I had guest coming and needed to fresh my place... Also it is my time as well

I did not manage well and so far I feel we both failed.

But I do hear what you are saying. I have issues that when I am in it, I am not as aware.

Thank you for taking time to give real feedback.