Reality Check Please

[Jenny-begins.....]

Sorry brat, I must have been writing when you posted your last response. You answered a few of my questions.

 

[mamachick]

Jenny that is what I think too. Why do single men chose a family resort? Are there not more single resorts? I dont know, I just dont feel right about it. Neither have children or partners.

 

[mamachick]

Do these men have children of their own that they would be taking here, or are they going to a family resort just as two adult men? If so, aren't there adult only nudist resorts? I'm not sure if I missed something.....

I dont think I explained very well.
Both of these men are in their 40's, both have never been married. I have known them only about 7 years. One I have never known to date a woman, the other dates very little but no serious relationships but he was having an affair with a married woman while her husband was in Iraq.(he is ex military). Both work in law enforcement, but the second one is also a licensed counselor and works at a school, has been awarded for his advocacy with boys from troubled homes as a volunteer in another agency, etc. Since I have known them, there was a group of several of us brought together for work and we socialized together a few years ago. Most in the group thought the first is gay and the second bi. Their orientation is not the issue, but it did fit with why neither dating or ever being married.

Our female friend who is married and was having the affair with the second one is who told me that she was invited to this family nudist resort. (I looked it up on the net and it is not clothing optional-you must be nude) When she told me this, I was in shock. It just did not sit right and I told her so. I asked her why 2 grown men with no children would want to be at a place where there were nude children. (in most ways they are both quite conservative) I asked her if this was not worrisome for her. She responded by saying "what -do you thinking, that they are pedophiles?' I would hate to think that about them but it leaves me feeling uneasy, and that is what I told her. She thinks I have a dirty mind, which is fine. Since this, any time she has the oppurtunity, she throws up "you think___and___are pedophiles." I have never said that, but am suspicious, and am starting to feel ashamed and think that maybe I do have a dirty mind. I dont know what to think. I know my perceptions are skewed at times. Honestly, I wish she had never told me this.

I would think that these men who work in law enforcement and see the crimes involving children would not do such a thing if for no other reason than how it would look-unless of course it was something that they reallllly wanted to do. The first one goes several times a year. There are plenty of single and gay resorts, why would you go to a family resort. As a parent, I would be concerned if my childrens guidance counselor who was 45 and never been married did this.

Now with all of this coming out about Sandusky at Penn State, I feel really confused. There is nothing that I know so there is nothing to be done. I am just even more aware of how people turn the other cheek. Even if others had not seen what happened in the shower and locker room at Penn State, were there no signs of what was happening? Sandusky was taking these boys to all these games, buying gifts, etc. Did people (others than those who knew) just think he was such a wonderful man to start this agency for kids in need, and spend so much time with them? Did others have bad thoughts but then feel ashamed for thinking such a thing?

This woman friend has brought it up so much that I feel ashamed and defective for thinking that their behavior is less than honorable. Then this Penn State report came out and I feel really confused. I dont want to think bad things about others, am I so defective and damaged that I do have a dirty mind without reason. I have lost confidence in my thinking and beliefs Please give feedback, Im so confused.

 

[The Albatross]

Brat, she was mistaken. You don't have a dirty mind... you gave an opinion based on your life experiences. She is free to accept or reject it... but doesn't have to lump in a judgment like that on you. No need to feel ashamed OR defective... we typically try to read beyond the surface... it's our safety mechanism, regular people are more inclined to take things at face value with a reasonable confidence that they know what's what.

Don't lose your confidence because a woman who had an extramarital affair and went to a nudie camp says you have a dirty mind. Her remark was uncalled for and insensitive.

 

[Meadowsweet]

Brat, I don't know what I think about this. I would be suspicious of two child-less men going to a family nudist beach. But I really dont know if I can trust my judgement of men. I tend to think of the worst possibility, but sometimes others intentions aren't bad, they're just ignorant of how their actions might be percieved.

But, you absolutely don't have a dirty mind, you are simply showing concern about the situation because of your experiences. To me, that is understandable and nothing to be ashamed of. It seems like your friend isn't understanding where you are coming from and in my experience, that can make a difficult situation worse. I know it is easier said than done, but perhaps letting your friend know that her words are hurting you because of your experiences might ease that side of things.

 

[The Albatross]

Personally, I don't have any children... but I prefer family settings to adult only ones. I feel safer. If I was gonna go to a nudist camp I'd probably go to a family one too. That's because more than likely, I consider it to be safer. Law enforcement officers see the worst of humanity... maybe that's why they chose it too / maybe not. But of course the safest thing would be to not go at all.

 

[mamachick]

Thank you for your responding. The whole thing has left me feeling very confused. Meadow, the rational thing to do would be to let her know that her words are hurtful, yet based on past experience, she would not accept that well. She use to drop in without a phone call at any given time. There were times that I was not home at 11 pm and she woke my teens up and got them out of bed awaiting my return. They were mad. I politely asked her to call before coming for this reason, and she twisted it to be "I didnt know I needed an appointment to see my friends". Setting healthy boudaries were met with such resistance, that I have distanced myself. Recently we had a conversation and she brought this nudist camp, and my dirty thoughts out of nowhere, skipping over anything real.

Albatross, I never thought about it feeling safer but I can understand that. I do tend to read more into than what is on the surface-it is a safety mechanism. Thank you for saying I have nothing to be ashamed of.

 

[Stormy Eagle]

I find it interesting that their behavior could even be thought of as acceptable.
Perhaps these grown men have no sexual interest in children, nor are the children interested in the bodies of the grown men. But this is a SLIPPERY SLOPE. No chance should ever be taken when it comes to the lives of children…there might be the distant thought but no intentions on the part of these adults…and even if no there is no intention to begin with, thoughts might intrude. Discomfort will probably be there, within the children, just from being naked in the company of naked adults…who the h*** would put a child in that position?! Let them “be natural” in the company of other consenting adults, without the presence of children!
Please don't worry about what that silly lady says, it is the people that live in denial who later come to find that they should have taken precautions. You are not being cynical, just realistic.

 

[mamachick]

My thought is this: the children being taken to this resort do not have a choice, they may be comfortable and know this as a way of life, or they may feel very exposed and self conscious, as they return to the regular world where their classmates wear clothing. Do they tell their classmates that they go to this resort for weekends or vacations? are they comfortable? I think kids get drug to these things, not unlike some religion, and grow up to resent it and carry the baggage that was put on them-they do not have a choice. Because they do not have the same choice and rights that the adults do, regardless of wheather I want to spend my time at such a place, I would never spend time at such a place knowing that everyone there is not there of their own free will. That being said, I do not understand how anybody that deals with child abuse and should be enlightened to what I stated above would participate in such behavior, even assuming they are there for nothing more than living and experiencing the natural environment, with no other agenda.

 

[Stormy Eagle]

My thoughts exactly, you are so right about that baggage. How odd that it is even legal! Where else can children and adults run around naked together and people think it's okay?! Attention does need to be brought to this odd practice...I really had no idea that there were "family" nudist resorts...sick.

 

[Harry6]

Skin sends messages:

Skin is a medium for communication on many levels. It may be painted for war, attract the opposite sex, or to send all kinds of messages. A touch can speak volumes. We read embarrassment in a blush. We understand red-faced with anger. We use skin for communication in endless ways. But most of all, we read what is shown or concealed. Skin communicates.

Context matters:
Vastly different degrees of nudity are the norm for different cultures, climates, seasons, genders, ages, activities, etc.
It makes no sense to talk about the significance or possible effects of nudity without taking account of context.
Public nudity in New York is different then it might be for someone at home in a culture deep in the Amazon Rain Forest. It could be very different in New York vs Paris, or The Netherlands.

Adults make choices
The adults discussed above can make choices about what they don't wear.
They don't have to conform to what other people might see as "normal" clothing for a culture.
That's their choice. But doing so will send a lot of messages. Their society may not tolerate that. To avoid this conflict with society, the Nudists go to a special place. They have a place, and their own society, where the norms are different.

Choices send messages
Of course the adults discussed in the original posts above make choices not only for themselves, but the children they bring to a nudist gathering. What messages does this send to those children? What message is sent simply by the fact of taking them to a "special place" where this "different" behavior is welcomed? And in the culture to which they will return and live, what will skin communicate to these children?

Not ok for children to be on display

Most of the people who go to nudist colonies are probably not very unusual, and certainly not predators. There might be people who are there because they are proud and showing off, or any number of reasons. But a nudist colony would be very different from being in a tribal culture where no one wears much. It would be very unlike the ordinary incidental nudity that happens homes, schools, locker rooms, etc. At a nudist colony it would not be incidental. Adults who bother to go to a nudist colony are presumably motivated by wanting to see nudity and/or be seen nude. They are there for the purpose of being seen nude and seeing others nude. Knowing nothing else, would you want them looking at your children?