News SGB PTSD Treatment Article

[amethist]

Kim, I thought all brain illnesses that effected brain function were classed as Mental illnesses in various forums. Whether curable or not, though worded correctly it is a Disorder.

So if PTSD does effect brain function, what is it if not a kind of Mental Health issue, and the professionals who treat and support it, are they not Mental Health professionals.

I am just asking out of curiosity of what your explanation would be. As if is the brain function that is effected how can it be a physical condition. ????

 

[TLight]

Plus what about PTSD brought about by prolonged and severe multiple traumas, such as concentration camp victims, cult survivors, etc? No just one seconds long event? To me, it seems brain changes have already been found to be pretty severe.

 

[anthony]

Uncomplicated PTSD IS a physical condition and can be detected with imaging- just like cancer. If you read Lipov's new book, his explanation will help you see that. I have addresses this topic at least once before here.

There is no such thing as "uncomplicated PTSD" to begin with... so please don't make something up or perpetuate something that isn't fact.

Secondly, unless you or Lipov are somehow leading neurological experts, who actually cannot currently make any such statement that PTSD can be detected or empirically proven via any neurological imaging to date, then I don't think you should make such claims. Lipov is not a neurologist, he is an anaesthesiologist, and his speciality is pain management, not PTSD.

There are some promising studies with PET and FMRI technologies, however; none to date have a 100% or even close to assessment scale yet, that has been empirically validated as correct.

Thirdly... whilst it is theorised that PTSD is a psychological illness that causes a biological problem, it comes back to the worlds leading experts on PTSD and neurologists working with mental illness, to date, state they DO NOT know exactly what PTSD is. They "suspect" and "theorise" that all the problems stem from the prefrontal cortex, not other areas as suspected and theorised in the past... though they still cannot to date ascertain with any validity whether their current theories are correct or not.

Please do not makeup un-factual, unproven information thank you.

 

[Girl3]

I have participated in two of the leading neuroimaging studies done in the US, both of which were heavily funded based on very rigorous preliminary data and were funded by NIH. The study I begin in February is funded by the DOD.

As an anesthesiologist, I have done many stellate ganglion blocks and have seen what they can do for CRPS/RSD when they work - which they do not always. Even when they are done under fluoroscopy, SGBs can fail or cause complications. While many of the complications are short term and more annoying than life-threatening, there are complications that can cause death or permanent disability.

Whether or not you believe PTSD is a mental disease or a physical disease, one thing is absolutely known: cognitive behavioral therapies can cause physical alterations in the brain parenchyma. Cognitive behavioral therapy can change your physical brain - just like PTSD appears to cause changes in the brain. But CBT isn't just sitting around talking and requires a therapist who knows how to execute CBT. So, a mental health therapy can help with a physical brain change.

I caution people not out of negativism, but out of care and concern. There are several studies, here and elsewhere, looking at SGB in IRB-approved fashion for a number of conditions. Patients enrolled in these studies will not have to pay to receive a block, they will be monitored and followed over time. While being a study participant doesn't negate the risk of complications, at least patients will be cared for if they have a complication. They will be tested by psychologists or psychiatrists repeatedly to determine changes in patient status.

Wishing everyone a safe and content new year.

 

[soulofLC]

Thank you Girl3 for your input. It is good to have dialogue here.

If I am reading you correctly, CBT is good, if it can change the brain. In a good way? I am starting CBT next week and wondering, because I have heard both good and bad things.

 

[Girl3]

Yes - CBT changes the brain in a good way. I have worked over the past year using CBT as well as medications that support improvement.

CBT is work for you and your therapist, with a lot of it requiring homework on your part. I am no where nearly as bad as I was a year ago, am much more integrated, and calmer. But I still work daily on the things that I am supposed to do.

I wish you great success with your therapy and hope your healing is steady. This is a great forum to "hear" others and find real sympathy and understanding.

 

[soulofLC]

Thank you for your response. I feel hopeful after not having adequate treatment for almost 2 years (no insurance!).

I have to get better. I will work hard! This is not living. You know what I mean, I am sure!

Yes, I do love this forum. So glad to have found it, and people on here like you.

 

[anthony]

Read [DLMURL]https://www.ptsdforum.org/c/threads/removing-therapy-type-confusion.15534/[/DLMURL] to understand CBT therapies... which is different to this discussion about SGB.

 

[soulofLC]

Thanks Anthony. I will take a look. It would be good to go in knowing what to expect.

 

[Kim A4]

As far as my use of the term "uncomplicated", I am referring to the purely physical PTSD effects of elevated and sustained adrenaline production and its directly related symptoms only. Not the accompanying cognitive issues and effects. By uncomplicated, I mean its purely physical/physiological traits. Perhaps it is not a scientific term, but one as a non-scientist I chose to use. I am a lay-person, as are most followers here, I assume. I apologize for not using exact scientific terms, studies and jargon as some others may.

I personally happen to fall into the new-sprouting group of physicians and other believers that PTSD is, and should be categorized as a Traumatic Brain Injury or TBI. See Lipov's book for more details. It is a small and easy to read piece of literature.

I feel strongly about this having had a 26 years of experience with CBT and literally almost every therapy to work on my "fight or flight" aspects of my PTSD, and the SGB injection was the only thing that truly stopped the knee-jerk adrenaline-pump anxiety, almost immediately and now for almost 10 months and counting. Maybe what I am speaking of should be called something else, but I am not sure what.

That does not mean that CBT therapy is meaningless or unnecessary, as I am sure it is needed as well. But this thread is not about CBT for PTSD.
Everyone can benefit from CBT. The CBT surely helped me as well and I certainly would never suggest one avoid it, but the SGB was miraculous in it effect on "trigger" anxiety and startle reflex anxiety. Once that physical impedance is eradicated, then I feel CBT can work tons more effectively.

My point is that I feel the specific physical brain actions "undone" by the SGB on this physical aspect of PTSD on the brain may very well be something to delegate to physical medicine .....the rest lies with the psychological experts. I would like to see the first line of defense be the SGB and then followed through with CBT. My hunch is that it would be the most time and cost (and life) saving approach. This approach is one where PTSD is a physical brain injury/disruption that then causes psychological disorders. Most combat soldiers seem to fit this model.
I am not implying that I am a neurological expert, Anthony, but as previously mentioned, magnetoencephalography (MEG) can image PTSD activity in the brain, http://www.workplacebullying.org/2010/02/11/meg/ and then 1/2 hour after the SGB, that activity is shrunken or gone. This physical brain image implies a physical presence of PTSD as I describe it above, and reinforces this shared belief that the SGB treatment is one for physical medicine as a primary treatment prior to neurological studies and treatments. Again, read Lipov's book for a better understanding (Amazon.com link above) I prefer you challenge him and not me. I forward on info from his research, and do not think he is making anything up. Nor am I making up anything or in competition over who can present the most "proven" data.

I am passing on new theories along with my very personal opinions -as one who has actually had the SGB treatment, read the Lipov SGB/PTSD literature, and also endured most other CBT and non-CBT PTSD treatments. I feel I offer a worthwhile viewpoint as one who has gone through the SGB door and emerged joyful and triumphant. I want us all to feel that way. My goal here is to offer the most honest help and first-person support for others with interest. I have no reason or motivation to make up anything and so what if this new approach threatens old data or theoretical strongholds? Just because past data implies something, does not mean it is the final answer. A little faith, please.
The point of this SGB discussion, I thought, was to follow this obviously new and "unproven" treatment's potential. My goal is to offer faith and hope for those nearing the end of their options an wanting to learn.
Had I only relied on past data to steer my personal healing, I would not be the calmer and happier person I am today. I took a leap and it changed me forever. I want others to know that there is hope. At the end of the day, since a little research, some courage and perseverance will get you the SGB, the only thing that matters is whether one has the need or courage to try it out. To a true PTSD sufferer, I feel the health risks for PTSD outweigh SGB risks by a Gozillion times (how about that for scientific?). I just feel it is a shame for so many to suffer needlessly.

If we all have to bring proven data to be challenged just to able to contribute here, then where is the hope for brand new ideas and forward "out of the box" thinking? If you one day decide to actually have the SGB and hopefully know yourself how profound the difference can feel, then you may be more willing to let go of the older facts, and open up to some new and yes, technically unproven, possibilities.
I am so glad every day that I did.
Until I have further scientific news to report on this thread, please reach me for procedure/approach info through a private convo on this site.
Thanks and the best to you all. Kim

 

[anthony]

That is an article... MEG has not yet been empirically validated to do what those claims state. Some years ago, the same claims were made that PTSD could be measured under MRI with 90%+ validity... which have since been proven false.

Why? Right now, today, the leading neurological experts in the world still don't actually know what PTSD is or exactly where it derives in the brain, as they have never measured subjects pre-trauma, going through the trauma aftermath, then if they happen to get lucky and also have measured someone who just got PTSD, to find the exact changes.

The linked post is theories, not empirically validated fact yet. One study does not make fact... this was the problem with the whole older MRI debate... a few studies said they could do x... then they found inconsistencies which couldn't be accounted for, thus tossed out the entire data regime.

MEG is promising, I do not question that, just like SGB is promising for PTSD... but there is no valid empirical data on either yet to substantiate any claims made. It will take 5 - 10 years of ongoing SGB trials, follow-ups, post annual checkups, etc, before SGB can be validated as an effective treatment for PTSD or just another fly by the night treatment which works for a minority, but not the majority.

Anyone making further claims than that at this date, are lying to themselves. What history has told us so far, is that we don't understand something in a short period... it takes time to truly understand something and its implications for positive or negative outcome. Again, both MEG and SGB fit into that category of "still in motion."

This is no different to a new medication... they take a decade to process and validate. They aren't instant miracles, even though there creators pose they are. Most fail, a few become what the creators said they would do. Mental health treatments are no different... lots of new ideas and big statements, again, experience has shown the majority fail, but a few do become what they claimed to be... but only time will tell us that, not anyone's personal opinion or bias.

 

[cdinwv]

I can see this being viewed as a band-aid. However, with the brain processes and altercations that do occur because of PTSD, I could see how this could be very beneficial to PTSD survivors and provide a greater quality of life and hope of recovery.

I know that my central nervous system is impacted because of the trauma altercation done to my brain because of my abuse and what PTSD does to me. I have done enough personal research to know the brain and body do sustain damage that can not be fixed in PTSD other than reprogramming or getting the brain and the body to absorb information differently as well as psychological help for patients to think differently and view their life differently and how they absorb information as well. This can be very time consuming and almost impossible to erradicate the damage done to reprogramming the brain and body when the symptoms of PTSD are so explosive at times that anxiety alone makes it impossible to control to function to reason without the inner turmoil a person goes through.

But if anxiety could be managed and the internal fireworks subdued to allow the mind and the body to fully function on the removal of the programming that complicated the mind and brain to begin with, then there is a chance that it would help a person to speed up the process to PTSD healing, coping and recovery increasing a greater quality of life. At least if the anxiety and explosive fireworks of PTSD was managable, it would help the brain and body to refocus in life and in recovery to help and become productive again instead of constant regression that comes with PTSD. What's the difference with this study and experiment than the prescription drugs on the market now to subdue the anxiety and fireworks of the brain and PTSD? Nothing to me other than the side effects of prescription medication to make a bad condition worse.

I feel this is a study that should have PTSD supporters to advocate for. Any new medical test or procedure does not come without trial, errors, federal funds and volunteers. I would volunteer. This logically sounds promising and could be very beneficial and in aspects to prescriptions medications and seeking professional help of therapists, psychologists and specialized doctors of PTSD, this treatment is more promising with out the expensive price that is currently used in PTSD treatment too.