Shame Over Not Knowing Why Some People Have Left

[scout86]

Abusive families are incredibly static. They're always the same & nothing ever changes.

Wow! I'm going to have to think on that one. Seems like it might be true and I've definitely never thought of it before. Weird!

 

[Justmehere]

Thanks everyone! Your responses and support have been so helpful. You have given me a lot to think about. I have been trying to process through this, and this thread helped me not totally shut down on it. I was able to talk to my therapist about it today, and before I posted this, I didn't think I could talk to her about it at all. It's hard for me to talk about shame, because it makes me shut down. Thanks for bearing with me while I took some time to think it through before responding.

This post is gonna be long... sorry about that. Pleas bear with me. My head is spinning a bunch because I think I might finally be seeing what I have been missing, and it's really hard. Talking (or writing) is helping me keep my brain from going to a very dark place with all of this, so please bear with me. Sorry this is so long.

@Enaila - :( That's awful to lose a friend that way. I think you have a good attitude about it

@brandonsmom777 - I can related a bit to your therapist asking you if you like that guy you went on a date or not, instead of focusing on if he would like you. I think it's somewhat new for me to choose friends, more than just let them choose me. I'm slowly choosing different kinds of people to be in relationship with. My therapist has been asking me a lot if I like what is happening or not, and what I would choose, and I'm owning it more. Are you referring to the book "Safe People" by Cloud and Townsend? I have read that book - and the book by the same authors called "Boundaries." I have also read a similar book by D. Allander called "Bold Love" that has a lot of the same ideas. "Safe People" is good, even for folks not into the Christian aspect, and really does do a good job of explaining how to find safe people. I do the best I can, and have for years, to apply it...

@Snowwhite - I think you are right, and that I am painfully discovering that they were not really ready to stick it out with me. I think people may indeed be treading lightly or trying so hard to be helpful, without even telling me they are doing that. People that see the PTSD, or at least the symptoms, and do their best, even going overboard to caretake me, maybe, in a way, to "help" me... and then when I say no stop, they feel helpless. They sometimes say stupid stuff like "you are worse than I realize" and then don't explain it... Maybe the helplessness is actually what I feel though, but I get the sense the other person is either angry or feels helpless or even hurt. That's the sense that I get in the moment. I have done so much to try and tell people not to care-take me though, so it's really confusing - and some people get in over their heads trying to caretake me...

@Thematrix - Those are great questions! I think the desire to avoid accountability is part of it. I think this may be a part of it. Staying in the relationship with me would mean they would have to deal with their own stuff. I want to be someone who people feel like it's safe to stay in it with. I think part of it is them, and part of it really is me. I wonder if all my anxiety about "no stop" looks confrontational. The more defensive a person is, the more defense mechanisms that can sometimes kick in for someone else, but more of a sense of shame over failing, over not seeing what so many others have seen. I am robustly good at self advocacy, but I'm terrible at enduring the sense of feeling helpless, and this pattern makes me feel helpless.

...So...You have a right to boundaries.
I don't necessarily think you're doing wrong things.

@Stickler - Intellectually, I very much agree that I have a right to boundaries. Emotionally? Not so much. When I try to hold boundaries, I get anxious, scared, a bit to say no. I still say no, so it gets confusing. People think I don't have any issues with communicating boundaries - but it comes out with a fair amount of anxiety at times. I wonder how that anxiety changes everything. It's really fear that I will get in trouble or something for the boundary.

@scout86 - I actually haven't ever told my current therapist the name of the old therapist... I did tell her everything, except the name, even that my previous therapist is someone she knows, and my therapist says she rather work it out with me directly. Which is awkward, since they work for the same group, just different locations... but it's been working ok. I still have wondered about my current therapist talking to the old therapist.

we start relationships and some people do not grow with us.And when we do start setting boundaries... then they are gone... well, they filled up a hole in your life for awhile. The great thing is, you start looking for different qualities in people as you are finding new friends... as you grow, become more clear about what you have to give and what you need out of a relationship..

Maybe you're changing and growing and--------truthfully, people don't like it when others grow & change.

@ladee and @EveHarrington - There are a number of relationships that have simply grown apart. That seems ok and not something that is hard for me to deal with. I change and in some cases, the other person grew out of wanting to be in a relationship with me. It's different than someone who wants a close relationship with me and then in a matter of minutes or overnight, cuts all ties and contact. I think that my recent freind who suddenly did that to me - I did grow past that relationship though, and she just finally figured it out overnight, that I wasn't going to do unhealthy enmeshment with her... and bam. Then it's done.

I think that the word no is a complete sentence and you are outgrowing your friends because you are getting healthy and more assertive which I agree means that they are losing their control over you.

Yes! I actually rarely say just "no" and there is something about this...

Abusive families are incredibly static. They're always the same & nothing ever changes. (Yep. Ever so slight exaggeration there, but not by much). Abusers abuse & victims stay. Any deviation from super strict rules of interaction & acceptable behavior is punished harshly, random rewards couldn't be better designed to keep people coming back for more, and roles are solid as basement rock.

My therapist and I talk about this very thing all the time. Dysfunctional families and relationships fall into incredibly predictable patterns. They are so robustly static too. No flexibility, and if there is any, it is seen as a threat.

They're fluid. People change roles as needed. Expectations shift in according to circumstance. Boundaries are either respected, or are realigned in order to minimize friction & sparks, or the relationship itself changes.

A million times yes! Fluid and flexible and there is variety and change and shift. This is so right on.

I think what bothers me is actually how rigid this pattern is. It's got so many similarities every time, that I can predict it now before it happens. There are relationships that I have that have ended, but in much more fluid ways. But there is this robust pattern where people even say the same things, and leave in the same ways. My therapist tells a story about a man who lost three wives and all left post it notes every time to tell him goodbye. Post it notes.

Here, on the forums, the pattern hasn't played out at all. I'm a bit quirky and have an anxious tendency to over-explain, and I'm quite the mess at times here. I'm open, sometimes vulnerable, and willing to stick my feet in my mouth - and sometimes do. And yet the pattern hasn't happened here. I can't figure out why.

I think it has to do with trust. Here, I do risk some vulnerability but I don't really have to trust in the same way I have to trust others offline. You all are working on your own stuff too - and that helps. The relationships that last in my life tend to be with people who know they are broken too.

My therapist both believe the pattern will happen between us too - except my current therapist says, let's do it on purpose. No really. The idea is that we will role play out the pattern, on purpose, except she won't abandon the relationship. The idea is that part of my brain will know it's a role play, and part of my brain will only know it's just me doing stuff with a person. Then if I feel whatever or do whatever on purpose, it's safer, and I can have a different ending. We can talk it through as it happens. While this is a less common therapeutic technique, it is well studied and does actually work for some people. It usually takes a therapist with a lot of fortitude and a client like me who has tried EVERYTHING else... My therapist and I have done this kind of role play with other things, and she links it well to processing old trauma.

So today, we tried to role the same pattern, on purpose, on a very small scale. The idea is that if we do it on purpose, find the pattern in this relationship, then we don't have to have it run away with us. Not knowing what is happening with it all makes it hard to role play, but we just started experimenting with things.

Today in session, she had me practice saying "no stop" to different questions, until I would feel anything like what I feel in these other relationships. Or we would build up to that point, and figure out what seems similar but on a super small scale. She would tell me she was going to move the trashcan after I told her I didn't want it to be moved - stupid stuff. None of it was triggery or weird. It was silly, if anything. She had me imagine what happens with others, and notice how I feel in my body, every step of the way as I told her what happened, and a bunch of anxiety spiked up. We were both confused about what was going on.

In the middle of this, she asked if I was cold and if she needed to turn down the air conditioning. I said "no, I'm ok."

She gently pushed, and said "are you sure?"

We went on for a few minutes, and I started giggling, "I'm saying no to you now!"

And she was pushing to caretake me. She didn't see it at first. But I told her, "we are in it right now. Just so you know. This is the pattern. It doesn't usually get out of hand but this is the kind of thing... "

It kind of freaked me out, because my normally very attentive therapist didn't hear me. She got up to turn down the air conditioning, and asked again, and I said no again, I'm not cold, and she says, "I'm cold, are you sure you are not cold?" I looked at her annoyed and anxious, and then she paused, and said, "...wait, what's happening right now?"

So awkward. She asks me all the time how I feel about the relationship and about her, so that way if we ever role play like this or transference comes up, it's safe and habitual to talk about it.

I know it might seem like a small miscommunication,. but this conversation about the stupid and irrelevant air conditioning went on for about 15 minutes until she finally heard me say no I'm not cold. Our relationship was absolutely not at risk over the most stupid misunderstanding about the stupid air conditioning - but it was an extremely light example of the pattern. We have had miscommunications before, but they went differently, and I wasn't as anxious.

I told her, this is what happens! She explained that she wasn't actually hearing me, and I told her I was getting a *tiny* bit annoyed that I kept saying no, I'm fine, and really it was about her feeling cold anyhow... And here I am, I'm saying no, again and again, I'm not cold, and it's like talking to a brick wall and i kind of just want to leave the room instead of keep saying no to you again and again.

She was baffled because she knows me as being relentlessly good at saying no, and she is generally very good at respecting my boundaries. She was really baffled. "I really didn't hear you say no, did I?" But she said she saw my anxiety, not my words.

It helped to get the feedback that she was responding to my anxiousness, not my words. She also owned how much she really wanted to caretake me, even when I didn't want it... It made it safe that she could admit it was weird for her, and that she owned her part.

So she gave me homework. I have to practice saying no without being anxious. I don't even get that... The goal is to notice if people respond differently.

For whatever reason, my therapist thinks she knows the way out of this... I'm not so sure. I am still not sure I see what she is seeing. :(

 

[Bloomy]

Thanks for making this thread, to all those who answered and your final reply @Justmehere . Thanks for sharing also what has gone on in your therapy. All very familiar topics to me and learnful to read this. Wait - therapy that is real therapy is not familar topic. But exctly there for it was useful for me to read how constructive therapy actually do work. Tet another thanks for sharing from me and all the best to you hoping youll figure it out.

 

[sun seeker]

I'm seriously googling books on how to be a nicer person.

I doubt it has anything to do with not being a nice enough person. I'd say save your energy there. It sounds like you are on to something when you say it is a trauma reenactment. We keep on playing out the same patterns over and over because we are looking for a better outcome, a different kind of resolution that breaks the trauma pattern.

What is your relationship with your current therapist like? You say you've mentioned this to her, but I don't know how much trust there is other than that. Could she help you work on setting boundaries within your relationship with her? If you have a safe place to practice, with someone who isn't going to suddenly leave because of something you've said, you will heal the pattern because it will have resolved and won't need to keep repeating. I would guess it's hard to know whether or not someone is safe to practice with, because you had no inkling this was going to happen with your previous therapist. So I'd say start really small, talk about it a lot, and take small incremental risks. Would you feel safe doing that?

ETA: I haven't read through your post directly above this one, because I don't have the time right now. It's possible my post is redundant.