Sexual Assault Should We Always Simply Say 'yes'?

[Lucycat]

I have started this thread so as not to take another even further off track.

My question relates to those who ask if they have been abused/assaulted.

I have seen many posts over the years by people asking this question in one way or another, and my stock answer is that if it feels like abuse then it probably is abuse. However not everybody suggests that is how they feel. I believe some people are looking for reassurance that what happened was normal (such as young children exploring together) so they can move forwards.

Some people are describing recent events, some historical and anywhere in between. Some are distressed, some curious, some simply 'troubled'. Some people say they are confused, others appear pretty clear in their thinking. (Remember not everyone on this forum has anything to do with PTSD- especially those imported)

It bothers me that if people are willing to share details - that clearly they feel is relevant or they would not have shared it - there appears to be an expectation that we simply ignore what they have written, say yes it's assault, and tell them to report it to the police and to get therapy. I kinda feel like this is totally dismissing and invalidating the whole point of the question.

It is not a question of whether we believe anybody's facts. They were there we were not. Everybody's truth is their own. However if they ask the question 'was I abused?' I can only answer as truthfully as I can from the information with which I am presented.

 

[digger]

I feel that posts which ask that question are asking for opinion. And yes, you can only give opinion based on the facts presented. Sometimes, with further discussion, and more information from the original poster, it may be that more comes to light and those opinions might change.

People come to these forums for help, but sometimes that is for help clarifying their confusion or feelings about things.

I have seen many posts over the years by people asking this question in one way or another, and my stock answer is that if it feels like abuse then it probably is abuse. However not everybody suggests that is how they feel. I believe some people are looking for reassurance that what happened was normal (such as young children exploring together) so they can move forwards.

I think that point is important.

In the past I have responded to posts like these, sometimes with yes, I think that is abuse. Sometimes with no, I don't. Sometimes I have changed my mind when more details have come out.

But no, I don't think you should always say yes. And I wouldn't want someone to tell me yes, if they thought the answer was no.

 

[ghotiff]

Interesting thread....

There have been a few times in my adult life where sexual things happened that were not my consent. I said 'no', I asked them to 'stop' but they continued on. During these events, my 'no' was not screamed, I did not physically 'fight' back, my request for them to stop was merely a request (that was ignored, but I was used to that).

A few times I got the chance to talk to the man/boy after some time had passed. The man had no idea that I was hating it and that I wanted him to stop. He didn't hear my 'no' (he must have 'heard' it, but he didn't 'get' it). So, for these events was it abuse or not? I don't know the answer to that question. The only thing I do know is that these events pale into insignificance when compared to my childhood sexual abuse. While it was unpleasant for a bit, I got over them relatively quickly and could put it behind me, and if I saw those men today I would happily chat with them. For me the intent mattered a lot. They didn't mean to take advantage of me and I'm sure if I would have punched them hard in the face they would have stopped (but I didn't 'fight' them, because that was my conditioning). I also know that they would have not done it again, they were shocked and upset at the thought that they had hurt me in that way. I would never report these events to the police.

I suppose I think that there is a spectrum of abuse. I don't know...

 

[fly away home]

If someone is questioning if they have been a victim of crime all you can do is go by the facts as stated by the individual. Make no assumptions. Make no judgements of character The truth of the matter is that assault / abuse can only be determined by facts.

How people feel about their abuse will be varied and cover the whole spectrum. Everyone is an individual and every case is individual. Feelings are not always a healthy guide and feelings change over time.

Facts do not.

 

[Echo]

On the basis of do no harm, I would advise someone asking such questions to seek professional help to work things through. We don't expect to be able to diagnose PTSD, and I don't think we should expect to be able to advise people on such a sensitive matter either. When you are young or deeply shocked or don't know the law, you, as an OP may not have represented yourself and the events well or fully or relevantly in the first post or subsequently. And if you then get someone saying no it wasn't X, Y or Z based on what you have managed to say, you may not feel able to seek help for what has happened to you. Victims typically minimise their experiences, suppress them and all the rest - we all know this from having PTSD, surely? I didn't 'remember' that my rapist had strangled me and tried to smother me until recently. I didn't get any help when I needed it. My whole life would have been different had I not met with ignorance, dismissal, minimising, etc. when I did seek help immediately afterwards, when I was so unsure about what had happened, or again ten years later when I found the words and tried again. Had someone said simply, something is distressing you, go and talk to a professional who is experienced in these things, things would be so different.

 

[cherryblossom]

I agree with @digger - well said.

I wouldn't just simply agree that someone has been sexually assaulted to reassure them, nor would I tell them it was 'normal', just so they could move on. I would simply try to give my honest opinion, based on what they have said, and maybe ask more questions for clarification. I'd also be prepared that my initial thoughts might be wrong as more facts emerged.

I also would try not to dismiss anyone's feeling, because how we feel about something regardless of the facts is also important.

We don't expect to be able to diagnose PTSD

That's not what we're talking about here. This sexual abuse sub-forum falls under trauma and stressors it's not about PTSD.

I don't think we should expect to be able to advise people on such a sensitive matter either.

Why not? If they come to a forum such as this, asking a question, why are we wrong to give advice? Clearly, every member can choose whether to respond to a post or not, but if someone has asked a question, and you have an opinion that might help, no matter how sensitive the subject, why not share your opinion?

Suggesting someone seeks professional help certainly could be part of the answer to their query, but if that's all we have to say, what's the point in having a forum? We might as well just shut the forum, and say if you have been/ or think you might have been sexually abused get a therapist.

Sometimes a forum such as this is a survivors only outlet, and only source of support. I think it's more important to encourage people to keep talking/ posting, whilst also being as honest as we can with our responses, which are likely to be based on our own history and personal beliefs.

Opinions will likely differ from member to member, and that okay, that's perfectly natural. Opinions may change when more information is revealed. That's okay too.

I'm always honest, sometimes too honest, to the point of bluntness (which has got me into trouble on numerous occasions :oops:), but hopefully not when it comes to trying to help a sexual abuse /assault survivor.

What is a little difficult now that the forum has moved, is the fact that people who have never been through sexual abuse/assault can now offer their 'advice' / opinion. The subject is highly emotive, especially for anyone who has been through it. There is a very fine line when it comes to being honest and being blunt on this subject (and I've handled it wrong in the past, and learned from it). MySexualAbuse was always based on peer to peer support. So essentially people who had been through some sort of sexual trauma were supporting each other, with the empathy, understanding and experience that came from that. But I don't think that was ever a case of being dishonest, and simply saying something that the poster wanted to hear.

We all know how incredibly tough it is to come to a forum, and share our experiences. I don't think I've come across any sexual abuse survivor who hasn't felt guilt and self-blame at some point. My main priority here, as it always was on MySexualAbuse is to believe the facts that I'm told, not assume anything, and to give people encouragement to keep talking, and keep reaching out for support. Gaining peoples trust is paramount to helping them to talk about it, which is beneficial in itself, until they find the confidence to seek professional help. Even with professional help, continuing to talk with others who understand is a massive help.

When someone posts for the first time, being judged and criticised by people who (may well) have PTSD, but who have never been sexually assaulted / abused isn't helpful in the slightest. It's so dismissive, and likely completely off-putting to the new member who has just shared an incredibly difficult time in their life.

Out of 20 thousand members here there are likely a few thousand who have been through sexual abuse / assault. We all have something to offer each other. I really hope that this sexual abuse forum can remain a supportive and nurturing environment, where we gather the facts, and offer help and support, not where we jump to conclusions, make assumptions and judge people.

 

[Echo]

When someone posts for the first time, being judged and criticised by people who (may well) have PTSD, but who have never been sexually assaulted / abused isn't helpful in the slightest. It's so dismissive, and likely completely off-putting to the new member who has just shared an incredibly difficult time in their life.

This was what I was meaning. I don't at all think we shouldn't support one another. I don't, however, think we should be opining on whether something was abuse, rape or not, unless it is extremely evident. I explained why I think damage can be done in my post, and here you have outlined further reasons.

 

[ill]

When I first read the title of this thread, I totally thought it was asking "Should we always simply say yes because apparently no doesn't count."

How many times does a person have to say no before it counts? In what way does a person have to say no before it counts? If they say no when they're drunk, does that not count? And yet how many times do I have to say yes before it counts? Once. Seriously, once. That's enough. But say no once and it's not enough. Say no twice and it's not enough. Say no thrice or more, still not enough, not if your "partner" wants to have sex. If I asked you if you wanted coffee and you said no, it would be mighty f*cked up of me to pour coffee down your throat against your protests.

If someone says no to sex with me, it is my responsibility to respect that, no matter how much I want it, no matter what activities we were engaged in, no matter how many times we've had sex before, no matter what they're wearing, no matter how many sexual partners they've had, no matter if they're drunk or sober.

One of the things I've found most perplexing about this site is that the notion of personal responsibility is pretty strong, but if you say no (repeatedly, even) to sex and your no is disregarded and disrespected, somehow you are still responsible. How is it that I'm responsible for another person's actions, seriously? How is that not codependent? How do you reconcile this disparity? I am responsible for my actions and no one else's - unless they want to have sex with me, then I'm responsible for theirs too. Not just their actions even, but their interpretations (no is just such a tricky word - what does it *really* mean? This is not a question we need to ask ourselves in everyday parlance and it's bullshit that we act like we don't know what it means here).

It bothers me that when someone arrives here and says I said no over and over and over again and none of my nos were listened to, members actually reinforce the rapist by asserting that a victim's no didn't really count, doesn't really matter. We're actually actively privileging the rapist - sure she said no, but.... But what? What exactly is bloody confusing about "No, please stop, no, please don't"? Like, this is actually scary to me because how then are you actually defining sexual assault/rape/sexual abuse, consent and sex? If a no doesn't count, how does a yes count, and if neither counts, how can we possibly distinguish between sex and rape at all?

Take people at their word. A yes is a yes and a no is a no. This isn't complicated, this isn't hard, this isn't something we struggle with (at the very least, to this extent) in any other place in life. "Do you like purple?" "No" Oh, well obviously this means she loves purple, she probably likes purple, she's asking for/wants to be surrounded by purple.

 

[fly away home]

@ill I am with you 100%.

Love the coffee and purple analogies.

 

[ghotiff]

If I asked you if you wanted coffee and you said no, it would be mighty f*cked up of me to pour coffee down your throat against your protests

This is why I didn't post anything in the original post which initiated this thread. I am damaged, I know I am, and its not in a way that is helpful for someone struggling with that type of question/situation. I remember once saying 'no' to a guy and he stopped. It still shocks me that he stopped.

For my above described event, intent (and the surrounding details) really mattered to me. It may well not matter to someone else, and I hope that I didn't imply that a similar same event happened to someone else that they should (or could) brush it off in the same way I have. For someone else with similar childhood that event could have been the event that tipped the scales, and they have every right to that feeling. I suppose what I was trying to say is that not every 'rape' results in the victim having an severe emotional response, and the victim should not feel that they 'have' to feel that way.

I'm sorry if I implied that a similar event for someone else was somehow 'less', it was not what I intended to do. (Sometimes I wish there was a 'take-back' button).

 

[billie]

..... what if you are conditioned to assault? Guess what! Its still assult. (If you are unclear of my point, just inbox me. I don't want to sound harsh).

 

[fly away home]

@ghotiff the reason why these two threads have upset me so much is because I have repeatedly been in situations like you. Like you, I was astounded when someone actually stopped and asked me if I was ok, if I wanted to stop. I had never known this, I had never considered I could voice if I was OK or not. I had always assumed sex was for them and I was for them. That is my role in life.

Now that I'm a mother I see things differently. I don't want these things for my daughter. So I feel very strongly about our right and the utter ridiculous notion that nothing would have happened if she had of been MORE vocal about saying no.

I was raped in front of a group of men whom I knew. I said no repeatedly. I said no quietly. I didn't fight very strongly I gave in, eventually said nothing and cried as he raped me. As the men watched and did nothing. People won't always help.

I was told that it didn't happen by my best friend because she simply thought that they wouldn't do that. I believed for many years that I wasn't raped and that this was normal sexual behavior. I was 15 at the time.

So this is why I say we go with fact over feeling. Not that feelings are to be dismissed or ignored at all.