Social Class And Ptsd

[J'qel]

There is a significant difference between someone mourning the loss of income and someone mourning the loss of their relationship with their spouse or children, the impending mortgage payment they cannot make on an excessively large house, the potential of their children screaming at them, their family disregarding them, and their friends disowning them. It's called "being owned by your ownership".

It is something I (in my relatively recent rise in economic circumstance) have done everything I can to avoid. While we've increased our quality of life it is in long lasting adjustments with minor maintenance. My wardrobe has actually shrunk, as well as my material possessions. It's a hard line to walk in a first world country where materialism is often King.

The loss of income can mean the entire end of a lifestyle among those ruled by their income and equity. It's terrifying. They too, need assistance and understanding, if only to recognize that they, as people, are worth more than the contents of their wallets. If anything, they have a greater problem in trying to recognize their personal worth beyond a dollar amount. It's not good, and I hope that more people try to combat it for the awful that it is.

Yeah, personally **** those people, but stepping back and thinking about it, they're more a figure of pity than anything else. I don't think I could live like that, and my life can, by times, already be pretty rough. Linking your personal worth as a human being solely to your wallet... that really sucks-constant tension, fear and anxiety. Just awful.

 

[Never_falter2]

@Richie: Thanks for sharing. As a woman I like to be around men who are protective and I applaud you coming to her help.

I think it is a brilliant choice to want to help vet because there are very few therapists of military background.

However I want to come back to the hypothetical example of Sir Basil. I do not do this out of meanness but because I think every sufferer should get the best help possible and in the past I have talked to sufferers who feel their therapist did not give them the help they needed. One reason: they were not able to tell him what they needed.

You expect Sir Basil to come to your office say "I have got combat PTSD, this are my symptoms, that is my trauma" but maybe it does not work that way.

Let's assume Sir Basil served as a combat medic. He saved the life's of many people but there was one he could not help, his friend Mortimer. He does not think about the many he saved, but about the one he did not safe. He feels worthless. It has been years now, but recently it has been very bad. Another friend has married and Sir Basil thinks of Mortimer and how he is never going to marry. He feels he is unfair he is still alive while Mortimer is not. At night he lies awake, reviewing the events that led to Mortimers death in his head. He wants to find out how guilty he is. He is just so tired. At his job at a posh banking company he is unable to work as well as he used to or maybe he even lost his job. He is afraid he will no longer be able to pay the rent for his villa in Belgravia.

Sir Basil might be unable to talk about all of this. So he comes to your office and just tells you he does not sleep very well and is afraid of losing his job, not being able to pay the rent for his villa in Belgravia.

So please do not tell him: "You need to find a financial consultant, I am not qualified to do this", because it may be the only time he reaches out in years.
I am not a therapist but I think it would be good to say something like this: "You probably know that I am a therapist specializing in combat ptsd. I assume you are here because you think you might have ptsd or show some signs of ptsd. You don't have to have full blown ptsd in order for me to try to help you. I understand it may be hard to talk about this. Please be sure I will never make you talk about things you do not want to discuss. So maybe you could just nod your head in agreement. Do you think there is the possibility you show some signs of combat ptsd?" Sir Basil nods. "Okay, I interrupted you. So you wanted to talk about your trouble sleeping. So please tell me more about this..."

My husband has ptsd but he does not like to call it ptsd. He calls it "that stupid thing", like "I did not sleep well because of that stupid thing again" or "I can't do this because of that stupid thing".

 

[Richie]

I would not dismiss anyone as quickly as that. If someone is seeking help then they clearly need it and I would need to establish the underlying issue. At that point I would need to make a call on whether or not I could be the best person for that job. If not then it would only be fair to find a better person to enable the best treatment to be given. That is ultimately what you want as a client after all isn't it?

 

[Never_falter2]

Maybe I got you wrong. You know, I thought what you where saying about "putting a size ten footprint on a rich mans fancy pants", because he complained about the loss of money was not the right attitude for a therapist to have... but maybe then you might have just chosen to be a bit drastic with words and not have not to say that you were really going to kick (or verbally kick) a sufferer out of your office. English is not my native language. Maybe it is common to say such things in GreatBritain.

I mean it is a difference between saying "May be Dr. X could be of more help with your XXX problem" and telling them to get lost because they are wasting your time.

To be honest I think there are some people who are spoiled and do have silly problems but it is not the therapists job to kick them... and often they have underlying issues below their silly problems.

 

[Richie]

part of the blame does lie with me. there is a significant difference between civilians and military with regards to things like speech and sense of humour etc. that coupled with the fact that i was at my Grandmothers funeral on friday so my head is all over the place right now. i apologise for the misunderstanding.

i have seen posts here saying that you can go through several therapists before you find one that works for you so i still think that not every therapist is the right one for every client. if the therapist knows that they are unable to help any particular client (for whatever reason) then surely they have an ethical duty to pass that client on to a more suitable therapist?

 

[Friday]

LMAO. Well. I started quoting @Richie , but it got a little too much..

I used to know a lot of people like me.

We came from different walks of life. We had the same problems. Suicided over the same shit. Guilt. Shame. Uselessness. Regret. Remorse. Incompetence. Grief. Despair. Exhaustion. We tended to self destruct in the same ways. So much about us was the same. Just not where we came from.

It really didn't matter if you screwed up at work and lost 50k of the company's money, or screwed up at home and lost 50k of your own money. Didn't matter whether your family was ashamed of you for not being able to work in the factory, or your family was ashamed of you for not being able to run the factory. Didn't matter whether your friends were angry at you for blowing them off going mudding, or for not showing your face at the charity gala. Didn't hurt less when other people were making something of their lives and your friends and family was so so so proud of (not your lazy incompetent ass) getting the foreman position // making partner ...or getting a 2year degree // West Point or Rhodes Scholar... Getting married... New baby... New house. Took the kids to Disneyland, or wintered in Aspen. Accomplishments. Achievements. Successes. Traditions. Expectations. From all walks of life, they're pretty much the same. Not what makes up an accomplishment or an expectation, but the fact that they exist. Things that make people proud of you. Things to build on. A life led. And you took a shower today? Didn't punch someone in the face? Today? I didn't off myself. For utterly failing at life. Cheers!

Same issues. Different window dressing, is all. Not man enough. Don't care enough. Not smart enough. Can't feel enough / feel too much. Too broken. Too f*cked up. No matter what class someone comes from... Broken just sorta transcends barriers. Can't do what I wanna do. f*ck up what I try to do. Letting the people who love me down. Hurt the people I care about.

 

[Never_falter2]

@Richie: Sorry to hear about your grandmother. I hope I do not annoy you. If yes, please just ignore me (or give my fancy skirt a footprint).

I have to be honest what you wrote did annoy me, because I thought of someone wanting to give my husbands fancy pants a footprint... and if someone did that I would try to give his pants a footprint (and beware: I am wearing kitten heels ).

Yep, I have forgotten that thing about English soldiers. I have known some in the past. The first one has been extremely polite and fairspoken man, who warned me *lol* of other English soldiers, because they had this rude and drastic sense of humor. Then I met some other English soldiers and instantly knew why I had been warned.
The German and American soldiers I know are actually not that rude, though I know they often think us civvies are overly emotional.

You are right. No every therapist is the right choice for every sufferer. There is no problem with suggesting someone might want to see another therapist if done politely and empathetic.

One of the things I possibly hate most about about PTSD is the fact many sufferers cannot discuss it openly but one of the symptoms of PTSD is the fact the sufferer just cannot talk about his struggles.

In the past I have met a lot of folks who felt their therapist did not really understand them. I like to talk about this, just to get it off my chest. You don't have to listen to it... I am not a therapist. Just he spouse of a sufferer... but may be there is one or two things that might be helpful.

Some of the symptoms of PTSD may look silly for the outsider. My husband for example had trouble dressing himself, because he felt there were two many different choices. Then he bought a number of trousers and t shirts of thesame kind and that solved the problem a bit. A fair number of PTSD suffers seem to struggle with that. There is a thread about it in the supporter sufferers symptoms forum. Just in case you are interested.

A suffer is often not able to say he is afraid of a thing. A possibility is to rate your feelings. Some books suggest this. The sufferer might say "Going to the movies is a ten" and mean to say that going to the movies would be extremely stressful, but going to a restraurant might just be a "four" which means he can do this.

****A few examples good therapist vs. unempathic therapist****

Please let me give a few examples of how a therapist can be empathic or unempathic to my mind.

First example: Sir Basil (a rich former combat medic, see above) comes into your office, wearing fancy pants and a £900 tweed jacket.
Sir Basil: "I am really having trouble of choosing my wardrobe in the morning. It stresses me a lot".
An unempathic therapist would say: "Sorry, I am not a style consultant. You look well dressed. I don't see the problem. Go see a style consultant"
An empathic therapist might wait if Sir Basil has something else to say and if not he might say: "I think I do not fully understand how you are feeling, but many people suffer from small choices. I think you know I am a therapist specializing on combat ptsd, but we do not have to talk about combat or ptsd now. Not until you are ready or maybe never. I just wanted to make sure you know which services I offer. But back to your question. Let's talk about your stress choosing the wardrobe"

Second example: Sir Basil is afraid of going to the shopping mall because he like a giant target.
Sir Basil: "I really don't like going to the mall"
An unempathic therapist might say:"Just shop at amazon. I do it all the time"
An empathic therapist might say: "Let me see. You old my office assistant you served wo rounds in afghan. You know a lot of people struggle with malls, a lot of people have trouble with crowds and it might or might not be a sign of ptsd. Wanna watch a video about this?"

Third example. Sir Basil talking about being unable to attend his friends wedding and not being able to join in eating oysters and lighting expensive cigars with £100 notes.
What he wants to say:"I miss my friends a lot"
An empathic therapist might just ask him if his friend does know why he did not come, if there are other ways to see the friends and so on.

Fourth example: Sir Basil talking about being unable to afford a duck shooting.
What he want to say: again that he is feeling lonely, afraid no one likes him.
An empathic therapist might tell him that there are people who offer financial tips but also guide him towards finding less expensive ways to host his friends.

Sorry for that long rand and maybe also a bit confusing bc I was multitasking while writing this.

I hope I was right about the empathic therapists reaction. Feedback very welcome. I am not sure if a therapist would ever watch videos with a sufferer (see example 2).

 

[Nevermore]

I like @Friday s response to this. I personally know people across all social "class" and don't find a difference. People are people.
But if you don't relate or feel some kind of bias agai at certain people, you're right not to work with them - for your own sake and for theirs.
But don't mistake your own bias for reality

 

[Richie]

In the past I have met a lot of folks who felt their therapist did not really understand them. I like to talk about this, just to get it off my chest. You don't have to listen to it... I am not a therapist. Just he spouse of a sufferer... but may be there is one or two things that might be helpful.

how long does it take to understand someone?
do people really understand themselves?

i am not expecting an answer to these questions as they are probably more philosophical psychology than psychology but they may be relevant.
each person is an individual so while symptoms may be common and cultures may be common etc etc, each person is unique in their own right and i treat people as individuals. but there will always be some people around who i simply will not understand because they are too different.

to put that into context, look at this forum. there are various different categories which cause PTSD and looking at the members who have been posting, can i conclude that the majority of PTSD sufferers are women who fall into one (or more) of those categories? no i can not! it would be completely unfair to suggest that just because there are more women on this forum than men then women suffer more from PTSD. that would be a generalisation and presumption and i really do not think either are acceptable practice for anyone studying psychology. going back to being an answers guy, i would raise lots of questions about why there are more women than men here. do women feel more at ease discussing things here than men? are they more likely to ask for help and support? do they find comfort from other sufferers? the list could go on and on but i think that would be more for research than therapy.

as a therapist, a personal opinion should be left outside which is fortunately something i am very good at. every person i meet for the first time has a clean sheet and they deserve no less. liking someone has nothing to do with anything because that is personal.

please bear in mind that my purpose here was to learn about PTSD but that has slightly shifted towards learning about the effects of PTSD rather than the symptoms. i could read about it but i see more value in reading from experience rather than knowledge to give me a better understanding of the people who have the experience. i have more respect for the members here than i do for those who write about it professionally because the members here are fighting back. their motives are unquestionably pure and i admire that strength and courage. i sincerely hope that everyone here does reach the end of their journey one day

 

[Suzetig]

i have more respect for the members here than i do for those who write about it professionally because the members here are fighting back. their motives are unquestionably pure and i admire that strength and courage.

The thing is we need people to professionally research and write about trauma, what it means to be human and what it means to offer help and support to traumatised humans. I have a lots of respect here for people who are in various stages of living with this condition. I also have huge respect for people who write about PTSD professionally - some of whom I'm privileged to know personally. I also value those people who fall into both groups and none.

I think you're running into difficulty in this discussion because you say things like you value every one, treat people as individuals, don't make assumptions about people and then go on to do just that.

It's not possible to never have an opinion about the people we work with and still be a whole person. It's equally impossible to like everyone, to value everyone unconditionally and still be people ourselves. But if we deny we have those prejudgments, biases and assumptions we can't ever challenge them and without challenge we don't change.

A wise soul said to me that the point of being in therapy isn't that we come out without any baggage, it's that we come to know what baggage belongs to us. Hence the reason therapists should, ideally have had extensive therapy themselves - to have the experience of being fully accepted, as they are by someone who can help them pick through their baggage.

 

[Richie]

of course we need researchers which is why i am going down the clinical psychologist route rather than the quick and easy route. i could be doing a 1 year course spending 3 hours per week in evening class then 2 years at university getting my degree and that would be me qualified to practice therapy but i have chosen the long road because i can then do more.
i didnt say i didnt see value in those who write about it, there is just no point in reading about it at this stage. i have 6 subjects every week to study until june so throwing something else in there right now is just not practical. i am merely doing what i can and not doing what i cant. it does not mean i wont do it when i can. with a project in psychology (40% of my overall grade) and a separate project on sociology coming up, maybe reading books that i dont need to read RIGHT NOW is just not practical
science is all about challenging things including yourself!

 

[Richie]

as for opinions, yes we do all form them but a professional opinion is very very different to a personal opinion. for me, there is a massive void between them so i would have to ask which one you want from me although more often than not, i cant give a personal opinion because i dont know enough to form one