Structural Dissociation?

[shimmerz]

I find it fascinating looking at posts these days. I read them differently somehow. I assign the pain in them to 'parts'. I noticed a post today that a response to a poster spoke about what she did one time when she had to deal with the same issue as the OP. The OP immediately latched onto that and related how she used to be able to cope. I translated that to a 'part' of her that she was lamenting. I tried to guess if it was an EP or her ANP etc etc etc. I guessed it was her ANP based on a story the OP told afterwards that articulated how she used to be able to take care of herself.

I wonder if any of you look at threads differently these days? I play 'games' trying to figure out things now based on this model. I find it interesting that the part we fear we are missing (I have noticed this in postings), people seem to be attracted to. So for instance, this person lost her protector, the person responding obviously has strong protecting parts. I can see how I would be drawn to certain people at certain times depending on what part was active at the time.

Anyways, just blabbering on. Ignore me.

 

[Hope4Now]

Hmmm.

where is the physical part of all of this? You speak about memory on an emotional part

I may be way off. Will have to look back at some neurology stuff. But...I think memory is both...memory=physical (sensory input/output)x emotional processing. or m=ppxep squared or cubed or something like that.

Experience gets coded differently depending on the pre-existing neural pathways. So today's stomach-ache (physical), for example, could conceivably trigger the brain to reconstruct and sort through a whole bunch of memories that were "stored" (stomach viruses, the time you had food poisoning, your stage fright in your first play, etc.). The memories were coded through emotional processing then. Now, when they're reconstructed, they're actually "new" because time and experience have intervened and our whole systems are constantly updating. It one of the reasons why memory is notoriously unreliable as far as specific detail goes.

The emotional processing system takes the information from current sensory experience and reconstructed memory, and holds it in the working memory until the motivation and effort systems get activated and "decide" what to "do". (This can be conscious action or not. It depends upon the activation of the executive system of the brain). Either by doing what has worked for the system previously (e.g., take an antacid) or by doing something new. Once the action has been carried out (and there is always an action of some sort or another...even dissociation is an action), memory is updated and "stored" again. There's either a re-affirmation of the existing neural pathways, or a new pathway forged.

I think the "cellular memory" is a sort of construct that is helpful, but I'm not really sure that the terms "cell" and "memory" as we understand them go together. In my humble and very uninformed opinion as of now, I think what we think of as a body memory is actually no different from most other memory--it's just that it was stored in the brain differently. The brain is everything...mind, body, spirit, etc. So I think there's no difference between the neurological and the physical except for our perception of where the action is happening. "My stomach hurts" is a whole body experience...from head to toe, inside to outside, outside to inside, because it couldn't exist without consciousness on some level (even if we're not aware of it), and consciousness is the "mind" part of the brain.

I'm making my own head hurt as I try to explain this to myself!

 

[shimmerz]

I will have to look into this more. I had a distinct belief that cellular memory was actually contained in the cells. Very much like when a transplant recipient gains memories from the donor. Some say this is urban legend but there are verifiable studies on this. This is what I refer to as cellular memory.

http://www.medicaldaily.com/can-org...onality-cell-memory-theory-affirms-yes-247498

Thanks for expanding on this Hope.

 

[Valentino]

Neuroscience does have pretty good research on how memory works, I finally got it when I was listening to NICABM trauma interview with Dr. Dan Siegel.

Here's an excerpt from his book Brainstorm, describing the process:

I’ve proposed that one aspect of dissociation and unresolved trauma or loss is that the movement from implicit memory to explicit is blocked. When this blockage occurs, implicit memory in its pure, un-integrated state has the important characteristic of not being labeled as coming from some time in the past. So when a person with disorganized attachment and unresolved trauma or loss is trying to respond to questions about those experiences, the raw implicit memories are retrieved and the individual is flooded with sensations, emotions, images, or behavioral impulses that feel as if they are happening now. There is no sense that these are images or feelings from the past. That is what unresolved trauma or loss can create, and it feels intrusive, confusing, and even terrifying.
-- page 127 "Brainstorm" Dr. Dan Siegel

and this is an excerpt from someone's summary of the trauma interview I was referring to:

Trauma in general terms leads to 2 chemical reaction
1. Secrete cortisol (blocks hippocampus) with extended release it’s neurotoxic (regions trying to grow and connect may be inhibited but cortisol secreted for long periods of time can be destroy synpases and existing neurons especially during developmental periods and also can happen in combat soldiers)
2. High levels of adrenalin. Adrenalin increases encoding of implicit memory

Adrenaline secretion increases coding. Coding stronger because of high adrenalin.
In contrast, cortisol secreted blocks hippocampus which is usually performing integrative role and assembles building blocks of implicit memory and factual and episodic memory (autobiographical memory – feeling a sense of the past, being reminded).

source -- http://healwritenow.com/dan-siegel-...2014-notes-adoptive-parents-trauma-survivors/

With some more digging around I discovered research and teachings by Dr. John Arden & Dr. Josepth LeDoux who also talk about how memory process works in the brain.

These are excerpts from a 2011 "Brain Science" NICABM interview with Dr. John Arden, referring to Dr. LeDoux's research:

a lot of what we’re going to be now talking about on a great work by Joseph LeDoux from NYU.

... He had shown that the amygdala has two tracks going to it. One is the fast track and one is the slow track.

The fast track is stronger than the slow track. So the fast track goes something like this. I’m walking down a trail in the Grand Canyon and out of the corner of my eye I see a very large long object. My retina picks it up. My retina is part of my brain, signals directly to the central switch board of the brain which is the thalamus. Then goes directly to the amygdala and my amygdala got a response as if that long object is a snake. That fast track kept our species and many other species alive. We need a fast track.

The slow track goes something like this. The retina picks up that information and signals to the thalamus which again is the central switchboard. It goes then to the cortex and I looked at the snake and right now I’m thinking about the snake because my cortex is involved “Well look at that. Oh look at that nice looking snake there. Oh my God and it’s looking at me.” Now I’m incorporating a lot of cognition here and then I send the information to the amygdala.

Now sometimes we need the slow track when there’s nothing to be fearful of. Sometimes we need the fast track when we step off a curve and we see a semi truck heading toward us but unfortunately people with anxiety disorders have their fast-track on too often and their slow track is hardly operable.
...
Explicit memory sometimes called declarative memory is what you and I think about when we talk about memory “Oh yes I remember that event and that situation.” They are facts and figures, situations, and autobiographical information and all that.

It’s largely a hippocampal driven process. Whereas with implicit memory you can think of in terms of it being nondeclarative or nonconscious and nonconscious memory can be procedural as you mentioned earlier which is more body memory, riding a bicycle, the tennis swing, typing, or driving a car. We do it without thinking about it. Once you get it down, you’ve mentioned how neuroplasticity and procedural memory work together and how I was using the tennis swing as an example earlier, once you sort of get it down, you just repeat it over and over again like driving a car.
...
In addition to procedural memory being part of the nondeclarative implicit memory category of type of memory, there’s also emotional memory, just having an emotional feel for something and that’s largely amygdala driven. It is something that is roughly nonconscious, as well. We might just have a feeling about something without having any idea as to why we have that feeling.

As therapists and as health professionals whether you’re a nurse, a physician, psychologist, occupational therapist or whatever, we are helping people often learn to change their nondeclarative memory, either their procedural memories or their implicit memories by helping them learn new skills. But it takes some time because unlike explicit memory that is more fact and context-based, more hippocampal driven, you need to have repetition, exposure, and repetition over and over again to create a new emotional base memory or a new procedural memory, such as the tennis swing, the typing or the exercise. I just thought that before we get into the different memory enhancement techniques that differentiation between explicit and implicit memory was important to make.
--- source NICABM "New Brain Science" 2011 webinar series interview with Dr. John Arden

I'm sorry for the long quotes, they are still relatively small portions percentage wise from the actual source material, but it's hard break down adequate descriptions into just a few sentences. Also there's limited web resources about this, or the ones out there make it too complicated or academic. And I'm rushed for time this afternoon.

I do want to explore and share more about the SEEKING circuit, I can see how it can be integral to creating ANPs, but I think that doesn't have to contradict my theory about ANPs identified around RAGE or FEAR circuits, and with some more thought I think PANIC/GRIEF circuit makes the trio of how personalities type out. And this also seems to match the Karpmann Drama Triangle theory describing 3 roles of Persecutor, Rescuer, and Victim.

 

[shimmerz]

that I am becoming so attached to you all!

And who could blame you for that????? :D

 

[Eleanor]

where is the physical part of all of this? You speak about memory on an emotional part (I think that is what you are alluding to), but there are actually memories stored in the way of cellular memory. This played a huge part for me. This seems to be all neurological you are speaking to. Am I mistaken?

I'm a bit short on time tonight... but this is quick.

I agree with you 100%, it is ALL physical. AND I am of the school of thought that thinks the mind is in the body, not just the brain. A goodly percentage of our neurons are in our guts after all. And our intestinal flora effect our brain chemistry directly ... and and and. So while the particular linkages and mechanisms are not all mapped and well understood (not by a long shot, lots and lots of work for neuropsychologist types to do for a long time to come) I think the gross functional outlines are what we now have in general....

I'll respond more later!

And thanks you guys. :x3::x3::x3:

 

[Eleanor]

I'm glad you brought up Karpman and the Drama Triangle, which I also find EXTREMELY on target. Here is the thing about the drama triangle tho - it is not, primarily, an affective disposition (which is why it is so damn frustrating to be on it.) It is a mental model, aka an interpretive framework. It is a lens through which one views reality - so it is habitual, but it is built on top of the primary and secondary emotions. Why is this important? Because we can change interpretive frameworks PDQ. So we get off the drama triangle by thinking differently - thinking habits are relatively easy to change. Thinking can change fast and more or less intentionally. Hurray for thinking!!!! Thinking is by its nature flexible. When our thinking is rigid (as it sometimes is with people on the drama triangle) we know we are in the grip of some uncalibrated emotional response system.

Thinking slowly, what we loosely think of as "reasoning" is a tertiary process, it requires consciousness and effort. We don't rely on it all the time (I am talking about Daniel Kahneman's stuff on "Thinking Fast and Slow") Some thinking is quick and habitual - we do it unconsciously. We "jump" to conclusions. We get the answer "automatically" or "by rote." We think of these as "thinking" not "feeling" because they have "mental content" or representational ideas. They are linguistic. And our culture distinguishes things we have words for and things we don't. And we order our experience by our words... except when we don't. When we get "stuck" and our thinking gets "off track" then the more basic parts of the system are in charge. And the more basic parts of the system are the algorithms and heuristics that we've learned will keep us alive. I'm not going to think about the camouflaging properties of tigers' stripes when confronted with a charging tiger, and if I do, I'm not likely to survive the encounter. The basic emotional response systems - the "unthinking" instances of activation are all about keeping us alive and functioning from one end of the day to another.

FEELING is a different story from thinking. FEELING can start fast, but dissipates slowly. Emotions begin automatic (think babies here) and get conditioned over time. Baby systems learn (through repetition) that they don't need to get THAT afraid or angry or cry that loudly when they are tired, hungry, cold, or wet or alone. Babies who are well cared for get calibrated emotional responses. Big emotional responses are metabolically expensive, so there is a disposition to calm them down if possible. In addition, we learn to distinguish different environmental cues and hone our specific responses to them, and we learn to anticipate what comes next, and get ready for it. Complex emotional responses (at the secondary level) are by nature anticipatory. (Not positive about this totally... but for now) So now we don't just afraid (FEAR) when see a Tiger, we anticipate a tiger when the bushes rustle, or even when we walk down the road where we saw a tiger before. Once we get a good working model of how the world works, tiger tracks might evoke some degree of fear, even if we've never seen a tiger making tracks or in that area before. Thus, emotions (the not linguistic ones) are conditioned responses, and like all conditioned responses take A LOT of experiential repetition to change. The more "functional" the world we grow up in, the more finely calibrated our emotional responses to the world are, and the more integrated our emotional responses are with each other. The more integrated they are with each other the more flexibility we have in our thinking.

Need a break, more on memory soon...

 

[Hope4Now]

And we order our experience by our words... except when we don't.

Ah, the chaos.
Also why one of the later stages of trauma processing is developing narrative.
Also probably why my friend wrote to me yesterday, "For most people, creative work like writing and painting can be very healing. You, though? You need to do it to survive." :)

 

[Eleanor]

Our understanding of the world is organized as narratives, stories, "what comes next?" Thus our responses to the world are organized around and determined by the stories "we tell ourselves" or perhaps more literally that are encoded in our cells. So to develop a new response, we often need to internalize a new story. "How do I want this story to end?" and how do I get it to end that way....

I worry a lot about what people's "default stories" are.... In SD the stories can switch in midstream. So one minute we are happily going along running errands in a pedestrian story about buying groceries, and the next minute, something happens to trigger an EP and in THAT state we are in a different story where we have to get home or something bad will happen, or more benignly that it doesn't really matter whether we get it done we can go look at clothes or something... anyway the state CHANGES and the story changes with it.

 

[shimmerz]

anyway the state CHANGES and the story changes with it.

Is it possible that these memories are stored at these different levels and therefore are presented/processed differently? This would mean to me that different states are compartmentalized differently. Are we speaking about different storage methods here for memories or is this dependent upon the EP's capacity? Many of my memories present differently but also very consistently, depending on the memory.

 

[Eleanor]

This would mean to me that different states are compartmentalized differently.

Yes. Memory is state dependent. So one EP might be in the middle of a very different story than another. IS in a different story. And YES these things are stored differentially. I don't know enough of the details to say "different levels" or if that is even the right metaphor. They are clearly different activation states however that have selective access to different information and structures of thought (narratives). They can cross reference to the extent that the emotional response systems (basic emotions) they are built on are integrated with each other. So if FEAR never really integrated with anything else, (e.g, is an EP) then the FEAR state has its own story and information, that is not, for all practical purposes, available to the other EP's ANP, and vice versa. As they integrate (build connections between the systems) they get hazy and the more clear ideas of each other - and more access to the information stored in the other systems. And when I say systems I mean physical systems. Networks of neurological (and probably other kinds) of cellular activity. And I'm not a brain bigot, so I'm happy to situate these things wherever. (I was among the oddballs in grad school who, confronted with the conceptual puzzle about swapping heads and personal identity, said neither would be the same person... they'd be hybrids. Lots of people were surprisingly hostile to this view!):alien::bookworm:

So within an activation system (EP) yeah, memory would be consistent. Across systems... not so much. So my H asks me to do something (EP#1) and then I leave the room and EP#2 takes over. EP#2 didn't hear what my H said. So doesn't have it in working memory. So I don't know he said it. Fifteen minutes later I walk into another room and EP#1 comes back on line. "CRAP, how did I forget to do what he just asked me." EP#2 takes over, again clueless. H asks me if I did it yet, "What?" EP#1 asks. H, frustrated, "Remember I asked you in the kitchen to do that???" EP#2.... thinking hard... "in the kitchen?" H "yes, just ten minutes ago.." EP#2... hazy memory forming... "Oh, yeah, right. OK. I remember now, you did ask me to do that.":bag::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::eek:

It is easy to see how this is hard to live with.:mad:

How stuff gets encoded into long term memory (as opposed to short term or working memory) and how EMOTIONAL experience gets recorded and habituated is a really complicated question - in part because people mean such diverse things by "memory."

 

[Pencil]

Maybe there are two kinds of problems one is where the WHOLE EMOTIONAL SYSTEM just gets STUCK and doesn't really integrate at all and stays uncalibrated to boot. Baby PANIC, is the one I'm thinking here. where attachment at all becomes a big problem. But more common is when a particular state of a system gets unprocessed, so stuck, but in a different way.

This is the definition of an EP