Suicide Is Not An Option But An Unwelcome Invitation To Hell For The Survivors

[Tinyflame]

Thank you @Fadeaway , because I do understand the range of terrible emotions (including anger) or potential aftermath when someone is loved, and needed. That is very kind. And yes, it is a horrific feeling to 'know' (is how it seems) that one's existence is harmful, not helpful. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. Yes the guilt is extreme. even if the intent is prevention the end result creates more shame, and burden, and grief.

May your mother rest in peace, and may you live in the same. Thank you for your kind words.

 

[ericaboo]

Lets just say a person is suicidal. They are critically depressed. They feel that everything they do just causes harm and burden to those around them.

They are then told that giving up on life is selfish and will hurt the people around them. How is this a compelling argument for this person? If you already feel your life is selfish and hurts people around you, why wouldn't you want to put a stop to that?

I know this is distorted thinking, but it's real to the sufferer. Piling guilt upon guilt - it seems like a recipe for disaster...

 

[ms spock]

Oh I'm sure @Ms Spock that sometimes people have wonderful intentions. Or get it wrong, or it's repulsive and terrifying. Generally speaking I don't find those types come out at it with both barrels.

I will respectfully totally disagree @Junebug. I have seen many people come out with both barrels blazing because they were totally terrified and gutted by someone else's suicidal ideation. Those of us who have lived with this can't truly understand how scary it is to someone who has no understanding of PTSD or depression or anxiety or suicidal ideation.

Oh I'm sure
All I meant was, just as it's no one's right to say someone's life isn't worth living, especially if they cannot help or defend themselves, how is it that others can determine what 'is' worth living? They say so, but they carry on- with their own life, I would hope they would extend that right to even those they feel that way about. They do not live it. It's like living with an oak tree across one's back and someone saying that a person is selfish to want it off. But they cannot (or care not) to remove it themself (which is impossible).

I am aware of people who say that other people's lives aren't worth living. Those decisions are made every day. When my brother was born the doctor asked my mother whether to put him under a lamp or not, due to quality of life issues. My friend's aunt was sick recently and they asked her if she wanted the morphine to help her through the dying process. Those judgements are made each and every day. But I understand your point and your argument. I think with mental illness we have to be careful. When someone goes to that dark place they are not as rational and well thought out as they could be. Sometimes compassion, connection, scaffolding people on to other communities can make such a difference.

For some people = the suicide is selfish thing is helpful for them to stay alive. If that works then that is great. I was thinking though that compassion can be another strategy. That connection can be a strategy. The acknowledgement that in this now life feels unliveable - to hear someone can be powerful and shift them from that space.

We have to be careful what arguments we have in public because we don't know what vulnerable people might be reading. I always suggestion ring the Suicidecallback line or Life Line in Australia.

I think 'helping' and your compassion is huge, and probably for so many, :hug: , I don't mean to sound cold, naturally you are 'correct' in a healthy, sane, respecting-of-other's way. I think there may also be a difference however too between those asking for help and those not. I have never expected anyone to do for me what is my onus and responsibilty. I just want to be left in peace. But then again, who judges what is not my business anyway, even if I am the one being judged.

I have been thinking of your post for a few days and I don't think I can adequately address these issues.

I just know that if someone makes an attempt and no one in casualty or the medical assessment unit talks to them as they are the suicide case then that is not really productive and it encodes another level of shame into the situation.

I know that I have a bit of a victim mentality myself. I am working on not being in that but it is hard as it is a long habit. I don't know if that effects my views on this.

Maybe what I am saying is helpful and maybe what I am saying is not helpful.

I was groomed by my mother for suicide - she would suggest it to me and then say "suicide is so selfish," so maybe my view is warped by that as well.

I like to keep people around - I like people. You can disco with them and exchange witty repartee and have a sense of community and connection with them.[/user]

And as the great American writer Alice Walker once said she wrote poetry to celebrate the fact that she didn't kill herself the night before.

Each day can be a success - staying alive is a success. I am not there anymore but I was a lot of last year.

 

[ms spock]

I think the problem is there's much behind the scenes in terms of beliefs and judgments as per suicide.

For example, I saw (with horror) people during the 911 twin towers collapse jump from 80+ floors, I think 2 held hands.

Suicide from a terrorist attack or a terminal illness is very different to suicide from mental illness, in my opinion.

 

[ms spock]

Piling guilt upon guilt - it seems like a recipe for disaster...

It can not be helpful. But if the discussion continues it might be helpful as a person could get a sense that they are wanted.

 

[Tinyflame]

nDear @Ms Spock , I appreciate what you are saying. In fact, I agree with most of it and since I disagree with so little I am going to just mention that.

I know I only brought up (personally) the fact that I needed help (re: SI) once to a family member, that I had to do something such as go to a clinic- or something- and was told how worthless and useless I was, and to kill myself and do the world a favor. Who knows what the motivation was, but those 'both barrels' didn't indicate much other than hatred. Unfortunately that was the closest person in my life.

I did contact by e-mail a prevention line, again I appreciate their intent, but it was simply not helpful (not their fault).

I agree that we do have to be careful of 'public discussion', and therefore I say I agree with all you've said in regards to helping others. I don't mean to make others feel suicide is right, or useful.

I think what is truly missed in some SI, is that it is about losses (holes), lack of purpose, lack of sufficient ('proper') fear of the end of one's life or dying, insufficient connection or a sense of worth or a feeling of any, or satisfaction, or ties. You see, I actually think the OP (Original Poster) is correct, in that when you watch people you love fight to live, and do so with bravery, you (I) feel ashamed to have SI. Similarly, we do not live in a vacuum, although some of us do not have the same 'others' (roles) in which we impact on. Also, when I have had to direct my energies solely to other's survival or needs, there is no room for the 'self'(ishness) of SI.

Something I think is not understood however. I totally agree with you on how it's commonplace daily that other's lives are jeopardized by those who don't recognize their (great) value. I personally gave up what I loved to do and would have been paid handsomely for solely because I valued the lives of, for example, the mentally challenged, people who by their nature and genuineness restore(d) my only faith in humanity. It is they who are vulnerable- I don't need "doctor-assisted" anything. Nor do I feel physicians should have that placed upon them, they did not sign up for it. I was naive, I thought the emphasis would be on 'helping' and providing resources and reducing fear, not 'removing' people based on probabilities they *would* (*could*) be different than 'average'.

I am sorry this is so long, will just close with one last thing. Actually, working with ill and often elderly people, I DO find that terminal illness is comparable. Or, more so, chronic illness such as Multiple Sclerosis (like ptsd chronic, may remiss, does not affect the life span). With terminal illness their is a likely foreseeable end, something daily ptsd doesn't have. Similar too to severe injury +/or paralysis, people have by and large no idea what strength and the type of daily activities are required.

But even more so, I work primarily with elderly, and I am seeing how 'normal' these thoughts and feelings are as one goes through losses in their life. The only difference being, sometimes we go through them earlier. We feel as they do in their 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's, now.

Similarly, I have always 'worked out' with those other's couldn't reach or had too much challenge with. And I know you @Ms Spock , help B and his dad. Well, in the process of getting to know someone with Alzheimer disease or dementia (50+ types exist and counting), my experience has shown me this much: if you listen, listen and listen some more (I mean with your heart and your head), you can 'hear' what they need to say- are trying to say. Every single one has coped with tremendous loss and pressure in their life, hugely worried all their lives (no matter how 'competent' they appeared), and they all have a secret, and a terrible (non obvious 'hole' (loss) ). When someone can hear or 'see' what they are hiding in plain sight, their illness won't be cured but their internal turmoil and fear ends. It's a very great privilege to have the person share it. But they have to be able to say what they don't feel other people can handle. They hide it even with their illness.

So where am I going with this, yikes. I guess to say it's critical people know they are wanted and loved. It's also critical to those unwanted and unloved to have that not invalidated. Simply because one has to begin with what is so. I feel sad when I am reminded of what isn't, I feel neutral when I am not reminded. For example, I do not think of not having much family, but I feel sad when I am in a position to be surrounded by families. It just is what it is. On the other hand, when I do not feel sad, I wish for example I worked in a job where -such as a war correspondent- where the risk of being expendable would impact less on others (because I have no spouse/ family much/ children). It actually becomes a positive thought, I would say "pick me!"

If that makes any sense at all! :rolleyes: Will end my 'yapping'. :)

Hugs to you @Ms Spock. :hug:

 

[Tinyflame]

You know it came to me, maybe things get all mixed up because of shame or guilt about it too, or self-hatred. That anyone would try so hard to help. That is, a person sees it as more of an option or 'reality', than the converse option of accepting that helping is not burdensome. Nothing necessarily to do with selfishness, actually, but perception and belief. The person not thinking of their own suffering selfishly, but rather suffering more (and causing others to suffer) to opt for suicide because that option seems better than accepting that help is not burdensome. The crux being the self-hatred/ not entitled belief/ feeling.

 

[Linda Lee Bogard - King]

Very sad day for my beloved man. A friend of his was dying of Cancer but decided to end it with a bullet. We all get the #PTSDBlues I hope all who have posted here have faith in themselves, they can fight the blues on bad days - find one thing to do but give it all you got and tomorrow will arrive sooner than you think.

 

[Hashi]

@Linda Lee Bogard - King I'm afraid I don't understand your post. To me, you've made a strong and judgemental statement when starting this thread and I don't see anything changing that.

If you're suicidal then tomorrow is just as bad as today, if not worse. It's unlikely to arrive sooner than you think, and what would it matter if it did?

You really don't seem to have any understanding of what feeling suicidal is like.

I personally would ask you - please don't judge people who are suicidal then come up with platitudes that - for me at least - have no meaning at all.

 

[Fadeaway]

Well said @Hashi

When you are suicidal, you do not look forward to tomorrow. Tomorrow is just another day filled with pain.

I can sympathize with someone who is dying of cancer taking their own life. They know that it isn't going to get better. They know that only pain filled days lie ahead.

Edit: I just read your post to my my husband as well as Hashi's and my own replies. He brought up an excellent point. Choice and dignity. Cancer stole his choice of whether or not he was going to live. He still had a choice though of how he would die. Death with dignity, or wasting away in a hospital bed where every choice is taken from him?

 

[ms spock]

Similarly, I have always 'worked out' with those other's couldn't reach or had too much challenge with. And I know you @Ms Spock , help B and his dad. Well, in the process of getting to know someone with Alzheimer disease or dementia (50+ types exist and counting), my experience has shown me this much: if you listen, listen and listen some more (I mean with your heart and your head), you can 'hear' what they need to say- are trying to say. Every single one has coped with tremendous loss and pressure in their life, hugely worried all their lives (no matter how 'competent' they appeared), and they all have a secret, and a terrible (non obvious 'hole' (loss) ). When someone can hear or 'see' what they are hiding in plain sight, their illness won't be cured but their internal turmoil and fear ends. It's a very great privilege to have the person share it. But they have to be able to say what they don't feel other people can handle. They hide it even with their illness.

@Junebug I didn't see this reply until just now. As always it is lovely to talk with you, challenging me to be more compassionate and open minded. I might not get there. I might get there. It is hard to know. Always I am learning, (particularly when I am not in rumination!) and that is good.

It is true that we do get there earlier and that everyone has regrets. And they do have a loss and pressure in their life and have hugely worried all their lives.[DOUBLEPOST=1406093703,1406093443][/DOUBLEPOST]

I guess to say it's critical people know they are wanted and loved. It's also critical to those unwanted and unloved to have that not invalidated. Simply because one has to begin with what is so.

Yes. Yes this is where you begin with the truth. And until you have the truth, you have no place to be.

I feel sad when I am reminded of what isn't, I feel neutral when I am not reminded. For example, I do not think of not having much family, but I feel sad when I am in a position to be surrounded by families. It just is what it is.

If that makes any sense at all! :rolleyes: Will end my 'yapping'. :)

It makes a lot of sense @Junebug.

Hugs to you!

 

[Pencil]

We all get the #PTSDBlues

Who are 'we'? All people dying of cancer? All people? All PTSD sufferers? No, we don't all 'get the blues'. No, depression is not 'the blues'. 'The blues' is what ordinary, normal, well-adjusted and healthy people get on a Monday morning when they don't feel particularly feel like going to work.