Sexual Assault Tea, consent, and the marriage bed

[lostforgottensoul]

Do you mean it was abuse for you to call your abuser and go over there to have sex with him? I don't quite understand.

No. She said Cosby said that the woman called him after, making it sound like it was consenual. I said that calls to an abuser after does not mean it was orginally consenual.

Are you bragging about most men not being able to 'keep up'? How is that relevant to the topic?

And if they can't keep up - have you ever coerced someone into continuing?

What? No I am not bragging. I advise that as most women I speak to do not get just how hyper my sexual drive is so when I put it that way they get it. And then I said even with that hyper of a sex drive, he still has a right to say no. Advising that men, generally having a higher sex drive then woman (generally) and that does not give them the right to push sex on woman. Just because they have a "physical need", which is what most I have talked to say. Its BS. Thats all I was saying.

 

[desiderata310]

Then what is Anon saying?

Well. IF I had to hazard a guess Eve I would say it's a guy that's pissed that we are talking solely about women and rape and sounds like (JUST A GUESS) that this they've been abused by a female.
WHICH if you read the beginning of this thread I said was open to having conversations on all sides of this conversation from the perspective of a guy being raped or a woman. YOU BROKE THAT RULE.

 

[desiderata310]

I am actually in a reversed role situation and I can't be more specific because I can't talk about it really.

I get that but if you could talk in general terms MORE that would be more helpful.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

I gave in to shut his mouth so I could get some needed sleep. I don't consider it rape at all.......

I don't either.

 

[desiderata310]

And I think it can't be considered without taking all the detail of a situation fully into account

Yeah. I get that. I'm not up to details here and was actually told today to stop journaling it. I'm trying to address this without reliving.

I have experienced something like this.

I think at the end of it I have to face the fact that I was complicit- even if not specifically willing. This really messes with me in ways I can't/won't discuss HERE.

 

[Friday]

I think at the end of it I have to face the fact that I was complicit- even if not specifically willing. This really messes with me in ways I can't/won't discuss HERE.

I have a much longer post that I'm working on, although I wanted to hit a couple things, since this thread is moving so fast... And this is one of them.

There is a HUGE difference between a new partner who doesn't know you sexually, and there's no rational way on planet earth for them to divine what you really want or how you really feel beyond what you're saying & doing in that moment... And a serious long term relationship with established patterns, boundaries, & interpersonal knowledge. When there is a history.

That goes by about x1000 when you're talking about abuse, and an abuser. Microcosm? When you were violently assaulted before dinner, & after dinner did as you were told.

That's not sex. That's domestic violence & sexual assault. That there was a dinner break doesn't mean there was no way for him to know, the same way a first date where someone climbs in bed naked!

Another night? It may well not have been sexual assault, but makeup sex. Doesn't mean that THAT night wasn't sexual assault. History makes shit complicated. Abuse makes shit complicated.

Macrocosim? When were not talking assaulted that afternoon and followed instructions that night... But YEARS of repeated patterns.

And, yes. That very much is a big part of where TeaConsent fails. (And hardly the only part) ...Because they don't have a section where someone asks you if you want some tea, beats you up when you decline, takes you out to dinner & then says "Now let's try this again. Have. Some. Tea." // "Please. Thank you. It's marvelous tea. I'm so glad I'm having this tea. You make the best tea." And then 3 months later says "I was just thinking of our anniversary trip, and was going to make some tea. Want some?" // "Please." :D :sick:

 

[scout86]

I have to face the fact that I was complicit

"Complicit" isn't the word I'd use, but maybe it's the right word. Can you explain how you mean that? I guess it's a complicated term/idea too. I can see where 'complicit' might be 'go along to get along' in a way where your wishes were so vaguely stated that an otherwise decent person might truly not understand that you weren't happy about going along. But "go along to get along" to avoid a beating? or some other form of bad behavior? That seems different. I don't think it's fair to YOU to hold yourself responsible...... Look, it was a bad relationship. It WAS. I honestly don't know what else you could have done, other than things that would have made it even worse. But the stuff those guys were doing? It was NOT OK. Doesn't matter if it was rape or not. "Rape" only really matters if you're going to court. They draw the line where they draw it. There's plenty of stuff that is very much "Not OK" that doesn't meet the legal definition of rape. To me, some of what you described was rape. Some wasn't. None of it sounds ok. Even if you WERE complicit (and I'm skeptical) that doesn't let your SO off any hooks at all. If they hadn't gone the routes they did, they'd have been no question of complicity at all.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

When you were violently assaulted before dinner, & after dinner did as you were told.

That's not sex. That's domestic violence & sexual assault.

Yes!!!!

You only did as you were told because of the 60/40 chance something bad would happen and that is under threat. Sex under threat (whether that is past threat, current threat, or implied threat) is not sex, it is rape. Even if you said yes.

That is what I was trying to say.

I think at the end of it I have to face the fact that I was complicit- even if not specifically willing.

I am super confused at the word "complicit" here. What do you mean?

Something that has helped me is if I was in the situation currently, what would you tell me about it? Would you say it was rape? If not, why? If so, why? Maybe write it out. The details (physical writing), the dangers and threats, the reasons you said yes, etc. That has helped me in the past as well.

Also, what does your therapist say about it?

 

[joeylittle]

Oh - totally. I meant to say that that generally one should deal with details, not that you need to right here and now.

Do you think of complicit being equal to participating, or wanting, or...? Just wondering what the word means for you in this context.

When my ex found out a tiny bit about the trauma in my past, he was apparently freaked out. Then, he became more demanding sexually. I found it very diffficult to deal with, because some of his behavior reminded me of the kinds of sexual encounters I used to actively seek out in the decade or so after the trauma. I was looking specifically for violent and controlling sex, then.

So when the person I shared a life with started acting like those people, I was confused about what I was doing. I didn't want it. I let it happen anyway. At this point, I don't think I even loved him anymore, but leaving didn't seem possible.

It definitely was not rape. I don't even think was abuse. It was definitely f*cked up, though. That's about all I know.

We never talked about it until we separated.

I don't know the right word for my behavior during that time, except for knowing it was not good.

 

[desiderata310]

That's not sex. That's domestic violence & sexual assault. That there was a dinner break doesn't mean there was no way for him to know, the same way a first date where someone climbs in bed naked!

You realize that there's a HUGE voice in the back my head SCREAMING "YEAH But I could have prevented ALL of this by JUST GOING AHEAD and having sex with him earlier that evening." right?

Another night? It may well not have been sexual assault, but makeup sex. Doesn't mean that THAT night wasn't sexual assault. History makes shit complicated. Abuse makes shit complicated.

I...
yes, it's all complicated. It's left me in a really shitty hole this weekend that I'm trying to dig out of and I seem to be making the hole deeper.
:bored:

"Complicit" isn't the word I'd use, but maybe it's the right word. Can you explain how you mean that?

I guess I've been slammed back and forth between the notion that the things that happened later that evening and then after that time, leading up to my departure, were either all consensual or all non consensual.(oh hi, why yes, I DO like white/black thinking, thank you for asking) For me, it's been hard to view anything that happened AFTER that date as anything but non consensual. I may have to concede that while I may not have LIKED it, it was consensual because I never really tried to stop anything after that.

That rips me to shreds.

I was confused about what I was doing. I didn't want it. I let it happen anyway. At this point, I don't think I even loved him anymore, but leaving didn't seem possible.

This actually explains it pretty well.

The next time I 'fought' or 'objected' was the day before I left. That day is cut and dry. f*cker tried to kill me in the process. The days leading up to that day were not things that I would have done ordinarily. And it's deeper than that still but that's all I'm going to say about it on this thread.

 

[scout86]

(oh hi, why yes, I DO like white/black thinking, thank you for asking)

One of the things I really like about you is your sense of humor. :)

it was consensual because I never really tried to stop anything after that.

Under those circumstances, I guess he could make a pretty easy case for convincing himself it was consensual. But then, he was probably a psychopath, or something close to it. I can see a difference between "consent" (that would be saying "yes" when you actually also had the safe option of saying "no") and "not trying to stop it". It sounds like what ever he wanted was going to happen, whether you agreed or not. The only difference was how messing things got in the process. If we're voting, that doesn't reach the level of "consent" for me.

 

[desiderata310]

can see a difference between "consent" (that would be saying "yes" when you actually also had the safe option of saying "no") and "not trying to stop it"

And this goes back to the whole... tea and consent and how, while simple and cute and seemingly elegant an explanation is USELESS when you start talking about committed relationships. But it's still considered consensual because it wasn't stopped.
It was just... f*cked up.
And he used this against me. I remember this very clearly in the trial for the restraining order: he kept saying that I wanted these things.