The Fight Response to Stressful Situations.

[becvan]

Hmmm

It seems that some of the responses are confusing a fight response to a life threatening situation and a PTSD rage. I'm not talking about someone pissing me off or slinging words that enrage me. I'm talking about having a loaded gun, safety off, aimed at my head with someone who wants to pull the trigger and instead of begging for my life, freezing, or running away. I fight. That is what I am talking about.

This also has absolutely diddly squat to do with alcohol. That may have more to do with the rages, but not to what I was trying to talk about.

Dshanks, I see nothing brave about it. It's just automatic for me, in certain situations.

Kers, that sounds very interesting about programmed responses. Mine vary depending on the situation (sadly... I think I have too much trauma...) yet.. they seem to be the same for similar types of situations. It's interesting. Do you know any more about this?

bec

 

[Seeking_Nirvana]

Maybe yours isn't a fight response at all, and is just a death wish on a subconscious level or out of instinct.

Instead of giving your attacker the satisfaction of killing you. You turn the gun to yourself and say I'll do it, it's my body and that takes the control away from the attacker and gives it back to you.

Maybe you can watch the movie "Deer Hunter" it kind of reminds me of what your speaking of. It's graphic so if you don't watch movies that trigger, than don't watch it. But in the end this man that served in the army played Russian rulet with his life for money.


Peace
Tammy

 

[becvan]

I thought about that in-depth, as I thought perhaps I had a death wish myself. However it's a no go. I don't partake in risk taking behaviors. I don't cheat. I rarely drink. I don't do drugs. I don't drive without a seat belt. I don't stay in abusive relationships. Nothing. I have non of the classic risk taking behaviours that come with a sub-conscious will to die.

However, the refusing to give them power aspect intrigues me. I think there might be quite a bit to that. I know if I'm taking a beating, the last thing I want to do is give the bastard the satisfaction of making me beg. Part of me refuses to "let them win."

Interesting insight Tammy!

bec

 

[Seeking_Nirvana]

Control

"I'm talking about having a loaded gun, safety off, aimed at my head with someone who wants to pull the trigger and instead of begging for my life, freezing, or running away. I fight. That is what I am talking about."

The part above that I read caused a fleeting thought. Then the possibility was about control. 'You refuse to beg, freeze or run so that you don't give them the satisfaction'.

I think that the anger is so great because some one once took away your control and crossed your boundaries. So you would rather do it yourself because most attackers thrive on fear and power. If you let them know your not afraid it takes the fun/control away from them.

I believe this may be a way to cope with what happened to you. By doing this it some how compensates for the control that was once taken from you.

I have no advice on how to handle it, except be careful and try to think things through.

Tammy

 

[becvan]

Thank you for the insights.

Right now, I just think this is a useless thread. Only a few people have even remotely understood what I am talking about.

Guess I feel very misunderstood at the moment. This is not something you can slow down and think about, or take therapy for to fix. It's my stress response to I'm going to ****ing die.

I get the rages, and I see what many here are talking about. But it's not what I'm talking about.

I guess this just left me feeling a bit more alone...

bec

 

[hodge]

I haven't had a gun put to my head, so I don't know if this will help you feel less alone, but when I was 11 and a friend of the family came to my bedroom and tried to molest me, I fought. My memory is hazy about the whole incident, but I know I fought with my life, with all my strength. I was much smaller and he was a big man. I didn't think about it at all, I just fought and screamed.

 

[Deleted member 93]

Thread is not useless. Just have to think that most don't put them self or take the risk to be in that situation anymore. While yes, I know what you are talking about I am a complete shut in now. But you! You are living!!! You are getting involved with people, going places, doing things. You are my idol over that LOL, you are taking the risks to be exposed to that again! You are exposing yourself. I would think this is the along the same lines as other forms of exposure (but not like anxiety attack versions).

I know rage is not the same thing. Anger is not either. It is no different than reacting like a deer stuck in head lights. It is a reaction. When it came to DV I reacted fighting though I have no idea why as I was sure to get an ass whooping. Now The sadist who played head games and conditioned me it was happening before I even got it was DV... Slick. Guns, I will freeze.

We all respond differently. Many feel so much guilt because they froze in the same situation you would not be able to control "ATTACK!" mode. That is why it is called fight, flight, or freeze. The flight. I never really experienced this to a full degree. But watching the news I finally can have empathy for a person who flees a burning building with their kids inside! While before I would think WTF is wrong with them? What are they thinking? Now I know it is not a thought process it is a reflex.

Freeze, why would a woman just shut down and "allow" a rape? You learn it is not allowed it is a reaction to save yourself. Again a reflex.

Fight, same thing. You are wired in your own way that certain things call for fight response. You are not alone or strange. You feel cornered it is a reflex and normal.

 

[Deleted member 93]

After further thinking I wanted to ask questions and make observations.

First why do you want to discuss this? What is bringing this to the front for you? I think discussing our responses at a time of trauma is needed and good. Just a lack of discussion?

Now why it is not spoken of more, the fight response... I think it has to do with not much guilt lays in that response. At least not as often as what lies in freeze. When you freeze so much guilt sucks you in. And people have to learn they cannot control that to work through the guilt. Now with fight, you can have guilt thinking you did not fight enough maybe, but he chances are low I think this would happen as many would have the mindset of the did *something* to ward off an attack. Some may even feel they over reacted.

Good aspect of the trauma related aspects of or fight, flight, freeze to bring up and certainly not to be confused with latter anger issues, alcohol induced rage... etc commonly found in PTSD as an after effect.

 

[Seeking_Nirvana]

Good aspect of the trauma related aspects of or fight, flight, freeze to bring up and certainly not to be confused with latter anger issues, alcohol induced rage... etc commonly found in PTSD as an after effect.

I did not know alcohol induced rage was common vieled. I think the thread is worth discussing because even though it isn't about me I did learn something. Maybe something will come to the forefront at a latter date for you bec.

Tammy

 

[Deleted member 93]

Anger and rage issues are normal with PTSD. As is self medicating and most common form is alcohol. Alcohol lowers inhibitions and makes depression worse. Not hard to see how alcohol induced rage can happen. But I am curious to hear from bec how she is feeling or what she is thinking of the fight response since that is what we are trying to learn about.

Maybe the fight response is more the norm with military training since it is always drilled in their head as part of training. For the average poster here it may not be as prevalent as they don't have this background and if they were in a DV situation as a kid (mom/dad) abusing each other they likely saw one freezing or backing down so when confronted with rape... Well, that is their "training"? Hmmm, many different aspects to look at. Just what is in our head as normal and what would be the normal reaction?

 

[becvan]

First why do you want to discuss this? What is bringing this to the front for you? I think discussing our responses at a time of trauma is needed and good. Just a lack of discussion?

I think about this on and off. I've had a bit of all three stress responses, but the fight one never seems to get discussed at all. It had just clicked for me that my reactions to taking a beating or a gun is the fight response. I was quite happy to discover that.

I had really felt like a weirdo about it. I mean, how many people really react like that? Most people are frightened out of their tree and I attack them. It's an odd response in my view. I was told lot's as a child, teen and adult that I was just a crazy person because of how I react. I don't like feeling like that. I know that since it's considered a main response to trauma I just can't be the only one.

I understand the guilt over freezing. I've yet to deal with some of that with a few of my traumas. This is similar. It's not guilt though. It's more like am I mad? LOL, it makes you question your sanity.

I grew up in DV. However my experiences with it, was that both fought. There wasn't much cowering. I witnessed parents trying to kill each other and them defending themselves. It's interesting that you brought up learning in our environments. As it seems clearly to be the case in mine, now that I look at it.

I have many more thoughts on this.. but it's pinging around in my brain refusing to make sense currently.

bec

 

[becvan]

This is from kers:


I found where I got that info--Babette Rothschild's book "The Body Remembers." I re-read that section online and she was talking about operant conditioning. Here are a couple of quotes I found useful, and maybe you will, too. The last one makes me think of what you are talking about.

"When a traumatic incident is repeated, as with physical abuse, domestic violence, incest, or torture, mental, emotional, and behavioral strategies for coping can become habituated, closing off the possibility of exercising other options, even in less stressful circumstances."

"Behaviors and beliefs conditioned during traumatic events seem to have a greater enduring power than those conditioned under lesser degrees of stress. Even one instance of a failed or punished survival strategy during traumatic curcumstances can be enough to extinguish that behavior from one's repertoire."

"On a hopeful note, operant conditioning can also work in reverse. When strategies used to meet a traumatic threat are successful, they become more available and are more likely to be used again."


I wanted to post it so that I go look at this more indepth. However I'm going to think on it a bit first.. lol

bec