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The Work And Byron Katie: Reviews?
- Post starter dharmaBum
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- #38
dharmaBum
Platinum Member
Interestingly, a member of myCombatPTSD talked about using The Work over the summer for help with anger management and seemed satisfied with the results [I tried to put the link, but I keep getting a Spam warning.]
I think The Work can have appropriate applications and adaptations. I definitely see it help when people are angered based on their own negative judgements of others. Some people seem to default toward thinking that if they are unhappy with a situation involving another person that means the other person is at fault and deserves whatever action they have an impulse to perform. Was that amorphous enough?
For example, my husband gets angry with our 8 year old daughter at times because she talks a lot and interrupts he and I in the brief moments we have to converse with each other directly. When he feels irritated by her behavior, sometimes he acts like a jerk, telling her sarcastically that he will stop what he's saying because what she has to say is SOOOOO important and fascinating. I think his judgement of her is that she shouldn't interrupt. I was showing him how you can go through the first part of the four questions to analyze that belief and decide if he wants to keep it. Is it true. Is it absolutely true? How does he feel with that belief? How would he feel without the belief?
Where The Work looses me is with the implied concept that he could/should let go of that belief by embracing at least one of nine possible turn-arounds*. Maybe those would grow out of: He shouldn't interrupt her, He shouldn't interrupt himself, She should interrupt him. But still, I think all of these concepts have a good deal of validity in this example situation, especially in a paradigm where someone is dominating, creating negativity and hurt via that domination, and they want or need to do things differently. I think this is why it can be useful for anger management.
When someone has been dominated and is trying to use The Work to help address their upset with the situation, I think it is a lot less appropriate.
*Byron Katie says The Work doesn't ask you to do anything, doesn't do anything itself, isn't anything, etc. etc. But, and I can't remember if I posted this upthread, when utilizing The Work as part of a psychotherapy practice, the University of Washington practitioners wrote that they found that relief didn't come until the subject accepted one of the turn-arounds as more true than their original belief.
I think The Work can have appropriate applications and adaptations. I definitely see it help when people are angered based on their own negative judgements of others. Some people seem to default toward thinking that if they are unhappy with a situation involving another person that means the other person is at fault and deserves whatever action they have an impulse to perform. Was that amorphous enough?
For example, my husband gets angry with our 8 year old daughter at times because she talks a lot and interrupts he and I in the brief moments we have to converse with each other directly. When he feels irritated by her behavior, sometimes he acts like a jerk, telling her sarcastically that he will stop what he's saying because what she has to say is SOOOOO important and fascinating. I think his judgement of her is that she shouldn't interrupt. I was showing him how you can go through the first part of the four questions to analyze that belief and decide if he wants to keep it. Is it true. Is it absolutely true? How does he feel with that belief? How would he feel without the belief?
Where The Work looses me is with the implied concept that he could/should let go of that belief by embracing at least one of nine possible turn-arounds*. Maybe those would grow out of: He shouldn't interrupt her, He shouldn't interrupt himself, She should interrupt him. But still, I think all of these concepts have a good deal of validity in this example situation, especially in a paradigm where someone is dominating, creating negativity and hurt via that domination, and they want or need to do things differently. I think this is why it can be useful for anger management.
When someone has been dominated and is trying to use The Work to help address their upset with the situation, I think it is a lot less appropriate.
*Byron Katie says The Work doesn't ask you to do anything, doesn't do anything itself, isn't anything, etc. etc. But, and I can't remember if I posted this upthread, when utilizing The Work as part of a psychotherapy practice, the University of Washington practitioners wrote that they found that relief didn't come until the subject accepted one of the turn-arounds as more true than their original belief.
J
justmeagain
Hashi, I have heard you. Thank you for being a good teacher.
J
justmeagain
dharmaBum, I like your thoughtful analysis of that situation. Good luck with it all.
- Post starter
- #41
dharmaBum
Platinum Member
I'm aware that I'm susceptible to confirmation bias as my concerns about the potential danger of applying The Work as self-help for PTSD have grown. However, this is a support forum with at one time a vast thread about people's negative experiences with EMDR, so I know we are not limited to writing "everything's rosy" in our experiences with PTSD treatments. Over the last two years since my initial exposure to The Work I have come across blog postings or discussion threads online that have been critical of the process when used as a mental health therapy and given very specific and detailed rationales. Most of those have disappeared or been converted to private access.
Today I came across this posting that seems quite valid and raises serious concerns about how The Work and activities related to it can lead to actual harm (the author has a history of trauma and is responding to helpful suggestions via a new-age message forum):
...I have tried many practices in the 20 years since these memories began to surface, including qigong, yoga, meditation ... thousands of hours of various practices ... and its hard to tell what difference those have made.
I have read Byron Katie's books and been to two schools run by her, and I think Byron Katie also understands very little about trauma. At the beginning of our 10 day Schools, she advised us to suspend our inner inclinations and follow her directions. I did that. She also repeatedly suggested that we "jump off the cliff."
I understood her suggestion to mean that I needed to abandon my instincts for safety and trust the universe if I was going to ever be free of the hell that I lived in day to day. Katie may not aware that it is a common experience of people with PTSD from childhood experiences to have lost all sense of self-trust and also to take suggestions very literally.
In the course of one of her exercises I walked off onto the streets of New York hungry and without any money or ID (rules of the exercise) and told myself that if I was going to follow Katie's suggestion to "jump off a cliff."
I needed to trust the universe completely ... which meant I could not worry about how to find my way back to her bus, and that I might never ever go home or see the people I loved again ... I just had to start walking and trust the universe and go wherever that took me ... I got lost, soaked in a thunderstorm and spent the night under an underpass, ate discarded food from a bag of garbage someone had left the street ... and when people tried to help me I didn't speak to them (one of the rules of her exercise).
I was terrified but I assured myself these were just "fear thoughts" and i mentally questioned my thoughts and repeated quotes from byron katie's little book of wise sayings over and over to ward off the terror. At some point the next day I had the awareness come up that what I was doing was violent and abusive to myself and to the people who I'd encountered who tried to help me, and I called the emergency number we were given and someone from the school came to get me.
In another of Katie's exercises I listened to a woman who had been sexually used by her father as a child write her father a letter of apology for "being a whore," Katie smiling and nodding while she read the letter. I wrote a similar letter, and I sent it. Looking back, there was nothing healing or enlightening about these experiences or their aftermath ... they just added confusion on to confusion.
The message comes from the Advanced Yoga Practice Support Forums.
There's also a news story from 2007 about a The Work facilitator named Rochelle Laudenslager who plead no-contest to murdering her former lover and is currently in prison for the crime. Prior to the murder, Laudenslager had written,
“The Work continues to reveal all answers/wisdom within — working with the true self, not against,” Laudenslager wrote. “As my mind continues to meet itself with understanding, open to seeing alternatives, I notice how a false belief gradually holds less power, unravels and falls away.”At the news article about the murder, via the Pennsylvania Sentinel, regarding Laudenslager, Byron Katie is quoted as saying
“I would say she got off to a good start and it just wasn’t enough,” Mitchell says. “It takes work. I don’t call it ‘The Work’ for nothing.”
Today I came across this posting that seems quite valid and raises serious concerns about how The Work and activities related to it can lead to actual harm (the author has a history of trauma and is responding to helpful suggestions via a new-age message forum):
...I have tried many practices in the 20 years since these memories began to surface, including qigong, yoga, meditation ... thousands of hours of various practices ... and its hard to tell what difference those have made.
I have read Byron Katie's books and been to two schools run by her, and I think Byron Katie also understands very little about trauma. At the beginning of our 10 day Schools, she advised us to suspend our inner inclinations and follow her directions. I did that. She also repeatedly suggested that we "jump off the cliff."
I understood her suggestion to mean that I needed to abandon my instincts for safety and trust the universe if I was going to ever be free of the hell that I lived in day to day. Katie may not aware that it is a common experience of people with PTSD from childhood experiences to have lost all sense of self-trust and also to take suggestions very literally.
In the course of one of her exercises I walked off onto the streets of New York hungry and without any money or ID (rules of the exercise) and told myself that if I was going to follow Katie's suggestion to "jump off a cliff."
I needed to trust the universe completely ... which meant I could not worry about how to find my way back to her bus, and that I might never ever go home or see the people I loved again ... I just had to start walking and trust the universe and go wherever that took me ... I got lost, soaked in a thunderstorm and spent the night under an underpass, ate discarded food from a bag of garbage someone had left the street ... and when people tried to help me I didn't speak to them (one of the rules of her exercise).
I was terrified but I assured myself these were just "fear thoughts" and i mentally questioned my thoughts and repeated quotes from byron katie's little book of wise sayings over and over to ward off the terror. At some point the next day I had the awareness come up that what I was doing was violent and abusive to myself and to the people who I'd encountered who tried to help me, and I called the emergency number we were given and someone from the school came to get me.
In another of Katie's exercises I listened to a woman who had been sexually used by her father as a child write her father a letter of apology for "being a whore," Katie smiling and nodding while she read the letter. I wrote a similar letter, and I sent it. Looking back, there was nothing healing or enlightening about these experiences or their aftermath ... they just added confusion on to confusion.
The message comes from the Advanced Yoga Practice Support Forums.
There's also a news story from 2007 about a The Work facilitator named Rochelle Laudenslager who plead no-contest to murdering her former lover and is currently in prison for the crime. Prior to the murder, Laudenslager had written,
“The Work continues to reveal all answers/wisdom within — working with the true self, not against,” Laudenslager wrote. “As my mind continues to meet itself with understanding, open to seeing alternatives, I notice how a false belief gradually holds less power, unravels and falls away.”At the news article about the murder, via the Pennsylvania Sentinel, regarding Laudenslager, Byron Katie is quoted as saying
“I would say she got off to a good start and it just wasn’t enough,” Mitchell says. “It takes work. I don’t call it ‘The Work’ for nothing.”
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What?????????
I believe there is a light side and a shadow side to everything; I see the shadow side coming out over and over again in what I see and hear about Katie Byron and The Work. Not that she is bad or that everything she says is wrong, but that there is so much shadow and the shadow keeps coming out, instead of light. The shadow here is way too much for me. Sickening.
- Post starter
- #44
dharmaBum
Platinum Member
The corporate side of Byron Katie is not what one would imagine based on the meditative practice she teaches. I've never attended a Byron Katie seminar, but I've read in numerous places that attendees sign a non-disclosure agreement. That would explain why traces of discontent from anything but anonymous participants disappear once they are published on-online. For a while recently there was a Facebook group utilized by several Facilitators of The Work and the general public. Someone high up in the business and personally close to Byron Katie (I can't remember her name at the moment) got really frustrated and decided to post some of her concerns about the business end of things. The post was active for maybe 36 hours before it was removed, and then the group got switched to private.
Back when I was first learning about The Work and feeling like I was not getting it, I was very close to utilizing the free phone line where I might have been assisted by a volunteer like Laudenslauger. I was actually in the process of deciding if I should pay $150 or so for 45 minutes of phone help from a local facilitator when it became clear to me that the system is not just smoke and mirrors, but sometimes fire as well.
Back when I was first learning about The Work and feeling like I was not getting it, I was very close to utilizing the free phone line where I might have been assisted by a volunteer like Laudenslauger. I was actually in the process of deciding if I should pay $150 or so for 45 minutes of phone help from a local facilitator when it became clear to me that the system is not just smoke and mirrors, but sometimes fire as well.
'The Work' is a simplified (maybe oversimplified) and structured variation of: Self Inquiry, Contemplation, Questioning our assumptions.
It can be a very useful tool to help question our own assumptions and beliefs, because many times we hold onto false beliefs and assumptions which often leads to additional suffering and also getting lost in our distortions of reality.
It can also be abused or over-used. One form of abuse is when you use the techniques to question other people's assumptions, as a subtle way to validate your own beliefs. Another common but very subtle form of abuse is to use it as a self-manipulative way of self-denial to avoid uncomfortable emotions or feelings. Over-use can lead to a sort of self created dissociation, people can end up in a sort of mental and emotionally numbed out state, to them it feels like freedom, but it's a very empty and hallow existence, and they are often dumping their unprocessed emotions onto other people.
I have found self inquiry practices very useful for my self healing and recovery, but it was rather easy for me to pick up, because I have always naturally been very skeptical and doubtful of my own conclusions.
If you're using a self-inquiry practice properly, there should be tangible results, like:
- better listening skills
- a more open mind and spirit
- a more stable emotional body
- cooperating with reality instead of fighting it
- connecting with our intuition
All therapies, practices, techniques, methods, etc. have some benefits, limits, dangers and abuses.
A self-inquiry practice develops discernment which then guides you to making better decisions on your recovery journey.
It can be a very useful tool to help question our own assumptions and beliefs, because many times we hold onto false beliefs and assumptions which often leads to additional suffering and also getting lost in our distortions of reality.
It can also be abused or over-used. One form of abuse is when you use the techniques to question other people's assumptions, as a subtle way to validate your own beliefs. Another common but very subtle form of abuse is to use it as a self-manipulative way of self-denial to avoid uncomfortable emotions or feelings. Over-use can lead to a sort of self created dissociation, people can end up in a sort of mental and emotionally numbed out state, to them it feels like freedom, but it's a very empty and hallow existence, and they are often dumping their unprocessed emotions onto other people.
I have found self inquiry practices very useful for my self healing and recovery, but it was rather easy for me to pick up, because I have always naturally been very skeptical and doubtful of my own conclusions.
If you're using a self-inquiry practice properly, there should be tangible results, like:
- better listening skills
- a more open mind and spirit
- a more stable emotional body
- cooperating with reality instead of fighting it
- connecting with our intuition
All therapies, practices, techniques, methods, etc. have some benefits, limits, dangers and abuses.
A self-inquiry practice develops discernment which then guides you to making better decisions on your recovery journey.
- Post starter
- #46
dharmaBum
Platinum Member
Valentino,
Thank you so much for sharing your review. It's a relief to hear from someone on the forum about this technique with such a considerate perspective.
I'm wondering what you think of the "all-inclusive" claims that Byron Katie makes about this method such as,
"The Work of Byron Katie is a way to identify and question the thoughts that cause all the suffering in the world."
Do thoughts cause all the suffering in the world? It tends to be an esoteric discussion as it seems a majority of people find that wrongful acts cause suffering and leave it at that.
I must admit that the amount of time that has transpired over the course of this thread has removed any personal urgency to find answers. My first posts went 1.5 years without reply, and were revived by someone who joined the forum and posted only on this thread and then never answered my question. 3 people have joined the forum only to post on this thread once without joining the discussion reciprocally, and typically many months pass in between postings.
It is clear though that others are reading this thread and are hopefully gaining some benefit via the discussion.
Thank you so much for sharing your review. It's a relief to hear from someone on the forum about this technique with such a considerate perspective.
I'm wondering what you think of the "all-inclusive" claims that Byron Katie makes about this method such as,
"The Work of Byron Katie is a way to identify and question the thoughts that cause all the suffering in the world."
Do thoughts cause all the suffering in the world? It tends to be an esoteric discussion as it seems a majority of people find that wrongful acts cause suffering and leave it at that.
I must admit that the amount of time that has transpired over the course of this thread has removed any personal urgency to find answers. My first posts went 1.5 years without reply, and were revived by someone who joined the forum and posted only on this thread and then never answered my question. 3 people have joined the forum only to post on this thread once without joining the discussion reciprocally, and typically many months pass in between postings.
It is clear though that others are reading this thread and are hopefully gaining some benefit via the discussion.
I'll post a quick response, but will try to consider your questions some more and might address things deeper after this weekend.
There are many ways to address that type of claim. There is some validity to it, there is also some deception, exaggeration, and impracticality.
Maybe it might be better to break down suffering into 2 layers:
1 - Direct physical pain, discomfort, injury, nervous system trauma, confusion, instinctual fears, brain imbalances
2 - psychological suffering, fear of pain, fear of feeling, fear of thoughts, inner critic, delusions, distortions, imagined dangers
'The work' can be useful to address 2nd level suffering, but not really practical for 1st level suffering..
An example: I just got stabbed, there is a knife in my body, I'm bleeding. If I'm still in a fight or altercation, I should defend myself, and seek physical safety from danger. Then I should seek medical care & attention to tend to my wounds so they can heal. Doing 'The Work', and asking the 4 questions at this time, is not very helpful, and would be a major distraction and the extra delay could cause me more harm.
Part of what I have observed with the way people actually practice 'The Work' is that they think of it in 'magical thinking' terms, instead of recognizing the limitations to this method (or any method), they self-blame, and too easily jump to a conclusion that they aren't doing 'The Work' hard enough, or doing it enough times, or they are doing it wrong, or need to get an expert to help them do it.
And Byron Katie and her authorized facilitators can propagate this type of dangerous 'magical thinking'. I recall seeing an authorized facilitator give a presentation, and it was totally obvious that she was simply reading a presentation but didn't really grasp & understand the actual material and process. I even personally saw Bryon Katie do a Friday night introductory presentation, and all she did was robotic type 4 step questions with a few participants from the audience.
It's nice that she was able to package self-inquiry into a 4 simple question process. You'd think that people could just take that and run with it themselves. But from what I've seen, people are just too confused, lazy, or unmotivated to regularly practice 'the work', and never ever get to a proficient level where it's a sort of natural or automatic way of thinking.
It's the same thing with meditation, you start with a regular structured formal practice. With practice it should become a habit. And with time, it should develop into an automatic state of being, you're mind is always in a state of meditation, inner calm and clarity. Meditation becomes the default state.
There are many ways to address that type of claim. There is some validity to it, there is also some deception, exaggeration, and impracticality.
Maybe it might be better to break down suffering into 2 layers:
1 - Direct physical pain, discomfort, injury, nervous system trauma, confusion, instinctual fears, brain imbalances
2 - psychological suffering, fear of pain, fear of feeling, fear of thoughts, inner critic, delusions, distortions, imagined dangers
'The work' can be useful to address 2nd level suffering, but not really practical for 1st level suffering..
An example: I just got stabbed, there is a knife in my body, I'm bleeding. If I'm still in a fight or altercation, I should defend myself, and seek physical safety from danger. Then I should seek medical care & attention to tend to my wounds so they can heal. Doing 'The Work', and asking the 4 questions at this time, is not very helpful, and would be a major distraction and the extra delay could cause me more harm.
Part of what I have observed with the way people actually practice 'The Work' is that they think of it in 'magical thinking' terms, instead of recognizing the limitations to this method (or any method), they self-blame, and too easily jump to a conclusion that they aren't doing 'The Work' hard enough, or doing it enough times, or they are doing it wrong, or need to get an expert to help them do it.
And Byron Katie and her authorized facilitators can propagate this type of dangerous 'magical thinking'. I recall seeing an authorized facilitator give a presentation, and it was totally obvious that she was simply reading a presentation but didn't really grasp & understand the actual material and process. I even personally saw Bryon Katie do a Friday night introductory presentation, and all she did was robotic type 4 step questions with a few participants from the audience.
It's nice that she was able to package self-inquiry into a 4 simple question process. You'd think that people could just take that and run with it themselves. But from what I've seen, people are just too confused, lazy, or unmotivated to regularly practice 'the work', and never ever get to a proficient level where it's a sort of natural or automatic way of thinking.
It's the same thing with meditation, you start with a regular structured formal practice. With practice it should become a habit. And with time, it should develop into an automatic state of being, you're mind is always in a state of meditation, inner calm and clarity. Meditation becomes the default state.
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- Post starter
- #48
dharmaBum
Platinum Member
So Valentino,
Where do you think diagnosed PTSD from identified trauma fits within the 2 layer structure you presented above?
Where do you think diagnosed PTSD from identified trauma fits within the 2 layer structure you presented above?
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