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What About Just Being There?

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I do fear self pity, something I know I'm capable of falling into...but it's not self pity when you allow someone to share your space?...is it???
No. It's vulnerability. If you can trust him to be with you when you are vulnerable, it can bring you closer together. It takes humility and courage to allow ourselves to be vulnerable when we have been hurt so badly. These are not compatible with self pity in my view. Pity, for self or others, assumes weakness, and unfortunately many of us with developmental trauma have bought into the belief that we are weak. We are anything but. The mere fact that we are still here and working on ourselves attests to our strength.

A lot of days I still don't believe that about myself and need to be reminded. Consider this a rare moment of clarity.:)
 
Neither childhood nor adult life have been safe from emotional and physical attacks, or from rescuers.
And how can the brain ever build new pathways if we continually repeat the same patterns?

it makes me feel even more vulnerable and somehow weakens my exterior....
I don't know that it is the exterior that is damaged. It is the interior in my case. The exterior, unfortunately provides a window for others to see our damaged interior in a truly raw form. That is super scary.

is it cultural?....is it something that's engrained in us?...is it too hard to crack as its worked for us for so long?.... would I be in a worse mess if I changed tactic?
These are all super valid questions. Sun and I have built a rapport and even with that rapport we have difficulties 'exposing' ourselves. But normally the other stays fast and steady and doesn't show surprise (we've both had experience with hiding in odd places, for example) nor judgement. Just patience. A calm energy. I think one of the keys is we both know how important it is NOT to react ourselves when the other is in react mode.

But then if I had someone who refused to go anywhere and stayed with me I'd be helluva uncomfortable, but then what? What would happen after that? It's an interesting question.
Then new pathways would be developed. Pain needs comfort imho. It may learn to reject comfort, but really it needs it.

There have been a ton of questions here in the heat of the moment(s) when one or the other is triggered.

1. When will you get sick of me?
2. When will you get sick of this?
3. Why are you sticking around when nobody else EVER has?
4. When are you going to leave because this is too much for you?
5. How could you possibly still see my value/worth after all of this?

Hugely vulnerable stuff. But the freedom to fly when we each have shown ourselves to each other - the knowing that someone has our back and we don't have to ask for help (although I think we are learning to try), allowing ourselves to be 'seen' - well, that breaks the shame. Because for once nobody is judging us. Or expecting from us. Or humiliating us.... the list, quite frankly, goes on and on, but that person(s) doesn't live here anymore.
 
...The funny thing?
When my significant other opens up and is vulnerable with me? I know how scary that is, because we both had really messed up childhoods.
So he may be feeling shame... I feel both honored and really nervous not to damage what I have just been handed.

I was vulnerable with him because my head was exploding when we met, and he let me take the entire bucket of sewage and dump it out in front of him to sort, metaphorically speaking...I was gonna talk or die.
 
I find this discussion to be quite fascinating to explore, but also quite challenging to put into words.

There seems to be exploration into subtle nuances of how shame and vulnerability work in real life.

Shame has root origins from an older word meaning 'to cover', which is a natural human expression when we feel vulnerable, exposed, weak, in pain, afraid, triggered, reactive, angry, out of control, shock, etc.
The roots of the word shame are thought to derive from an older word meaning "to cover"; as such, covering oneself, literally or figuratively, is a natural expression of shame. Nineteenth century scientist Charles Darwin, in his book The Expression of the Emotions in Man and Animals, described shame affect as consisting of blushing, confusion of mind, downward cast eyes, slack posture, and lowered head, and he noted observations of shame affect in human populations worldwide.
--- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shame
Shame also has a social aspect, it is like a 'social glue' that limits and controls everyone's behavior so that it's predictable in society (socialization). One common issue with the stigma towards people with mental illness or PTSD, is that their behavior is unpredictable, it doesn't fit into social norms, which causes most socialized people to feel shock, fear, uncomfortable, shame/exposed, etc.

When people face uncertainty and unpredictable behavior they typically react with 3 methods:
  • negative socialization - judgement, blame and overt shame [fight, RAGE]
  • positive socialization - rescue, comfort, support, distract, cover-up with positive feelings [flight, PANIC/GRIEF]
  • social abandonment - speechless, create distance, change subject, dismiss, dissociate, escape [freeze, FEAR]
Shame is considered one aspect of socialization in all societies. According to the anthropologist Ruth Benedict, cultures may be classified by their emphasis on the use of either shame or guilt to regulate the social activities of individuals. Shared opinions and expected behaviors and potential associated feelings of shame are in any case proven to be effective in guiding behavior of a group or society.

Shame may be used by those people who commit relational aggression and may occur in the workplace as a form of overt social control or aggression. Shaming is also a central feature of punishment, shunning, or ostracism. In addition, shame is often seen in victims of child neglect and child abuse.
--- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shame#Social_aspects
Unfortunately these common socialization methods are not very helpful with PTSD, or these methods actually create and reinforce PTSD.

So, as it's been discussed in this thread, maybe it's more of a normalization response that can help heal PTSD? It is having a real human being, to bear witness in a conscious, calm, patient, compassionate, non-judgmental, empathetic, and open way? Isn't this healing through unconditional love and surrender? But it does seem easier and maybe even necessary to have a separate human being to consciously embrace with in shared humanity, which at first can feel very vulnerable, exposed and scary, but with 'radical acceptance' and humble surrender, our shared humanity is the strongest anchor to healing, resilience, transformation, forgiveness, integration, peace, equanimity, etc.

At a more technical level, part of the normalization process is to deprogram and discharge old triggers. With development trauma there is often years of repeated mental brainwashing or cult-like programming, where shame was accurately associated with dangerous life or death survival. Feeling emotions, sharing vulnerability, voicing personal needs, creative expression, unique individuality, personal selfishness, etc. were behaviors that were actively attacked. It could be described as codependence or counter-dependence socialization programming.

This leads into a disorganized attachment bias, which has to be unlearned or deprogrammed working towards the 4 S's of secure attachment 'being seen, soothed, safe, and feeling secure' - which leads to stable self-regulation.

Community seems to be a missing link in the healing process, the current mental health model is done in isolation with a therapist playing the expert. Also most therapy models are practiced with distance and detachment, it's almost like a controlled dissociation. It's like everyone is terrified of getting too close? But what if getting up close and personal is the only way to get genuine closure and healing?

Apologies if I got a bit too deep and big picture, and not so personal. I'm still working on my Aspie limitations with communications.

Here's a classic Brene Brown animated clip that I think relates to this discussion:
 
"When people face uncertainty and unpredictable behavior they typically react with 3 methods:
  • negative socialization - judgement, blame and overt shame [fight, RAGE]
  • positive socialization - rescue, comfort, support, distract, cover-up with positive feelings [flight, PANIC/GRIEF]
  • social abandonment - speechless, create distance, change subject, dismiss, dissociate, escape [freeze, FEAR]"
Thanks Valentino
 
social abandonment - speechless, create distance, change subject, dismiss, dissociate, escape [freeze, FEAR]
That would certainly describe how most significant people in my life have related to me over the years. Is this from your own observation Valentino?

maybe it's more of a normalization response that can help heal PTSD? It is having a real human being, to bear witness in a conscious, calm, patient, compassionate, non-judgmental, empathetic, and open way? Isn't this healing through unconditional love and surrender? But it does seem easier and maybe even necessary to have a separate human being to consciously embrace with in shared humanity, which at first can feel very vulnerable, exposed and scary, but with 'radical acceptance' and humble surrender, our shared humanity is the strongest anchor to healing, resilience, transformation, forgiveness, integration, peace, equanimity, etc.
Totally agree.

Community seems to be a missing link in the healing process, the current mental health model is done in isolation with a therapist playing the expert.
Absolutely. And this is one of the big differences between the psychotherapeutic model and shamanic traditions. In her book Soul Retrieval, Sandra Ingerman states that in traditional societies, before practicing a soul retrieval, the shaman will want to know who is waiting for the returned soul fragments when they come home. The soul retrieval process is done in community. The songs that guide the soul fragments home entice them back to the tribal fire and their family members anxiously waiting, not to a life of isolation. Before working with a client, she establishes what kind of a support system they have. Modern therapists will ask during an intake session about a person's support system, but then proceed to work as if it were of minor importance rather than a central issue.

Apologies if I got a bit too deep and big picture, and not so personal. I'm still working on my Aspie limitations with communications.
Not at all. As always, you have made some interesting and unique points, and they are appreciated.
 
When people face uncertainty and unpredictable behavior they typically react with 3 methods:
  • negative socialization - judgement, blame and overt shame [fight, RAGE]
  • positive socialization - rescue, comfort, support, distract, cover-up with positive feelings [flight, PANIC/GRIEF]
  • social abandonment - speechless, create distance, change subject, dismiss, dissociate, escape [freeze, FEAR]
Valentino are these the people who are 'affected' that you are speaking about or the witnesses (supporters).
 
maybe it's more of a normalization response that can help heal PTSD? It is having a real human being, to bear witness in a conscious, calm, patient, compassionate, non-judgmental, empathetic, and open way? Isn't this healing through unconditional love and surrender? But it does seem easier and maybe even necessary to have a separate human being to consciously embrace with in shared humanity, which at first can feel very vulnerable, exposed and scary, but with 'radical acceptance' and humble surrender, our shared humanity is the strongest anchor to healing, resilience, transformation, forgiveness, integration, peace, equanimity, etc.
Yes, this is what I am trying to get at. And I wonder at times if it 'takes one to know one' in order to get that acceptance. We both know what it is like to hide and have reactions that seem infantile and can be humiliating. But there is almost like a braiding in this. We support each other towards health but recognize that it will be a process. We are not attempting to enable, but to walk through it towards health with dignity and respect intact.

I was gonna talk or die.
And this can be a great description of how it can feel; until it doesn't.
 
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