What Is The Right Thing To Do

[EveHarrington]

Actually I stand firmly behind what I have said.

If you're at the point of making an ethical argument over whether or not to expose your child to a situation which has a high chance of being abusive----there's not much more that can be said.

Yes, by reducing it to a matter of ethics it's putting the child's safety at a lower priority level than a theoretical ethical issue.

Forcing a relationship with the paternal side? To what ends?

I don't understand why a mother would want to force her child to have a relationship with the abusive side of the family. <mind blown.>

I think that guilt is playing a role in your internal conflict. Do you come from a broken family yourself? Oftentimes those from broken families feel a need to make everything right in their own (created) families. Is this possibly why you've been pushing for so much contact with a guy who has been throwing up the red flags of abuse for many months now? Why the need to make nice with people who have put you and your child in danger?

I'm sorry that opposing opinions are not wanted. I think if you're looking only for support and agreement that you should probably state that in the first thread post so that you don't end up with dissenting opinions.

 

[Stickler]

See, I kind of would guess that the kid may want to meet these people. I have no idea whether they'd want to know the kid...but at 13 and up that's also somewhat more logistically possible if both parties are interested in meeting.

Now...
If a young child is in regular electronic communication with them...would they not be able to track where that child was communicating from?

Or better yet...simply ask the child where they go to school or something, or enough simple questions, to find out precisely where that child is, over time?
Human intelligence, or what the hacker community calls social engineering...is often at least a good half of any hack.

You would never know if the interest his family showed in your child was honest or acquisitive until the day the school called and told you your child was snatched out of the playground by several bulgy guys in a fast car, with a magazine stuck over the license plate.

...Yes, yes, you're being paranoid, Stickler! don't be ridiculous! :banghead:

Maybe I really am?

I believe in overcaution, because the penalties for undercaution are f*cking heinous.

 

[digger]

Objectively speaking, without considering the specifics of my situation, do you guys think it is unethical for a pregnant woman to inform the baby's grandmother about the baby (if the father took off)?

There isn't one standard right or wrong answer to this and I honestly don't think you can look at whether it's the right or wrong thing to do without taking into account the specifics of your situation. What is the 'right' thing to do in a non abusive situation is not necessarily the same as the 'right' thing to do in an abusive one.

Wanting there to be people in his life who love him is great, we all want that for our kids, but if it's at the risk of also bringing more people into his life who could make it hell - I'm not sure the ethics stand up then. You can't just remove the fact the father is an abusive arsehole from the equation when you talk about what is the right or wrong thing to do. If you choose to encourage and involve the grandparents in his life, then I would say that pretty much guarantees that's going to bring the father into his life as well at some level.

At the end of the day the father does know that you are pregnant. I think the person responsible for telling his mum is him and you are not accountable for that. If you were keeping it a secret from the father too then what I think about it ethically might be more blurred, but as it stands I don't think you have a duty to either your son or his grandmother to inform her.

 

[Casey_03]

@EveHarrington I never said or implied that "opposing opinions" are not wanted, nor that I am looking "only for support and agreement." I'm really not sure why you're twisting my words like that, but it comes off as unnecessarily snarky, and I don't think I've done anything here to deserve the snark. I didn't say I don't want "opposing opinions," I said I wanted those responding to keep in mind WHY it would be nearly impossible for the kid to be kidnapped (instead of immediately jumping to that conclusion because it's something that happened to them or someone they know.) I don't see how that is somehow suppressing "opposing opinions" or seeking only agreement; it's asking others to read carefully, because I have posted this question before and I recall how quickly it spiraled out of control into people rehashing their own experiences instead of objectively looking at my situation. I am just genuinely confused by some of your assumptions, and it feels like you are projecting your own experiences onto me. Why do you think the entire side of that family is abusive? Have I given any indication that all relatives on that side are abusive? I don't think I have. And no, I don't come from a broken family. And as for "pushing for so much contact with a guy who has been throwing up red flags of abuse" -- again, where are you getting this? You think I am contacting him because several months ago I posted about him? How exactly am I pushing for contact with him by posting a legitimate question about my baby's future on an online forum? Or feeling a "need to make nice with people" who have put me and my child in danger? Where do you see that in my post? I feel like you put words in my mouth here. I did not say I want contact with the father or to "make nice" with him, and I have not been in contact with him. Again, I really don't know what I did to deserve the snark I got in your response, or the accusation that I'm only here to get "support and agreement."

 

[Casey_03]

At the end of the day the father does know that you are pregnant. I think the person responsible for telling his mum is him and you are not accountable for that.

Right, this is what I was wondering about, whether on some moral level I SHOULD inform her. I don't intend to do anything about this right now, either way, but it is something that I need to really think about. And I think that the best bet, as @FridayJones and others wrote above, is to wait until the baby is born at least, and reassess then. The fact of the matter is, I really don't know for sure that telling the grandmother would bring about more abuse. I have no reason to think she is as vile as her son; in fact, on the contrary, i have ample evidence to believe that she's quite a lovely woman, and his main reason for keeping this all from her is because he knows what he's doing is wrong and she'd disagree with it. But on the flip side I am also aware of all the horror stories and catastrophic outcomes, so .... I will continue to keep it in the back of my mind and focus on the baby as much as I can now.

 

[scout86]

i have ample evidence to believe that she's quite a lovely woman,

That's pretty important, IMO. Every situation is different. In a perfect world, it would be her son who would tell her. But, a nice person has a right to know they're a grandparent, I think. And a kid has a right to have a nice grandparent, if there's one available. If he won't tell her, the only person who can is you. I don't think you're under any obligation to help him keep his secret, which seems to be what your male advisors were saying when they said it would be unethical to tell her.

It sounds to me like your reasons for wanting to tell her are sound. The legal ramifications are way beyond my pay grade.

 

[EveHarrington]

I'm not twisting words, I am simply observing that opinions in agreement with you are welcomed with open arms while those which point out the possibility of exposure to danger are immediately shut down because there is no possible way that anything suggested could happen as you've taken the proper precautions. I believe there is danger in underestimating the possibility of something bad happening.

I'm not being snarky one bit. It seems that you're getting quite defensive after asking for opinions----and I gave mine. You have the power to take my opinion or to leave it. I cannot be silent when someone suggests that ethics rise above the safety of a child. (I personally don't believe that it ever does. A child deserves to be safe; first and foremost.)

Remember how you asked me what my own personal role is in my attraction and continued contact with emotionally abusive men? I think a similar question can and should be posed here. Why are you placing theoretical ethical considerations over the safety of your child? What is it that is driving you to stay connected to a guy who has emotionally abused you (in this case, connection by one degree of separation)? What is the underlying factor in risking the safety of your child? (IMHO the ethical considerations are a smokescreen for something else---what?)

 

[Casey_03]

@EveHarrington As I wrote at the start of this thread, I have posted this question before, and in that original post, months ago, the possibility of danger was thoroughly discussed. Which is exactly why in this thread, I clearly stated that the question I was posing was a slightly different one; I never said opposing viewpoints were not welcomed. I said I was trying to examine a different aspect of the situation (because the points you'd brought up had already been addressed), which I think is fair. Also, the first time I posted this question, I was bombarded with warnings about kidnappings and I was forced to expend all my energy explaining why transnational custody works differently, why it would be logistically impossible, etc. I spent more time explaining that than on really examining the question I'd asked. Which is why I responded to certain feedback this time around to ask that a different aspect be examined, as what you mentioned was already exhausted, and I'd spent months considering what was said then. Nowhere did I lash out at people with opposing viewpoints or shut them down. I responded to your feedback to correct a misconception about what you were writing -- which I think is a normal, appropriate thing to do in any thread, and one which any poster would do if they felt people commenting had misunderstood certain aspects of what they posted. If you're having a conversation with someone and their response clearly shows they have misconceptions, it's natural to correct them, no? That's what I did. But I was genuinely really insulted by your implication I was not being protective enough as a mother -- I'm sorry, but that's an incredibly harsh thing to say to a heavily pregnant woman, especially when all she's done is post a question on an online forum. It's not as if I was posting to say I was off to meet with the abuser.

Remember how you asked me what my own personal role is in my attraction and continued contact with emotionally abusive men? I think a similar question can and should be posed here. Why are you placing theoretical ethical considerations over the safety of your child? What is it that is driving you to stay connected to a guy who has emotionally abused you (in this case, connection by one degree of separation)? What is the underlying factor in risking the safety of your child? (IMHO the ethical considerations are a smokescreen for something else---what?)

This is where I think you are actually projecting your own past situations onto me. I think you are viewing my situation through the lens of your own history with men. How can you say I am placing ethical considerations over the safety of my child? If I were, I'd have already contacted the grandmother, I wouldn't be spending months mulling over the possible outcomes. As for "staying connected" to this guy -- I thought I had made it very clear here, but I will insist once again - i am not trying to stay connected to him by contacting his mother. That is not my motivation. I've already looked into whether or not it's possible to get a restraining order against him but still allow the mother to contact me. You talk about this as if there is some conspiracy - "a smokescreen for something else." In all honesty, I'm really baffled by this statement, and again the only conclusion I can draw is that you are projecting your own stuff onto me. I left the guy, blocked him everywhere, went underground and convinced all mutual friends we had that i'd moved back to the States. I cut off contact with everybody who knows this guy and even threw out my roommate because they were mildly acquainted. So, I really don't know where you are getting the idea that I am somehow seeking contact with him, or that there is some ulterior motive. If I were really "risking the safety of my child" by pushing for contact with this guy as part of some dysfunctional scheme, i'd have already gotten in touch with him, and i'd be posting here not with theoretical questions about what i should do months down the road, but with emotional outbursts about how it all went so terribly wrong. If you have a history of keeping emotionally abusive men around, that sucks, but there is no reason to project that onto me and make the assumption that I have some ulterior motive.

 

[Deleted member 33052]

Ask your heart and your gut what they think the right decision is. If they are keeping quiet, flip a coin. Before it lands, you will know your decision.

 

[Ronin]

flip a coin. Before it lands, you will know your decision.

Homie, deciding about serious matters on the basis of a coin flip is a sure way to land with bad decisions.
It doesn't work even for comic book villains, their cities burn & law guys have plot arcs for next few years off it.

 

[Deleted member 33052]

No, cashew. Before the coin lands, your subconscious will tell you the answer that is right for you. That's what I've been told, anyway. I'm decisive so I haven't had a chance to try it with anything more serious than what to cook for dinner. :)

 

[joeylittle]

Morally? I think there is absolutely no obligation. The father, yes (and he already knows) - it's on him to tell his family, or not. You aren't responsible for informing them.

So I really think you can do what you want to do, here.

I also strongly agree that it can wait until after kid is born. Your perspective on a lot of things will be informed by the actual existence of Kid - out in the open and no longer in your belly. It's also way less potentially confusing for Grandma. Post birth, you have a child, and you want to open up the possibility for kid to know something of his family - or not, if grandma doesn't want. Pre-birth, it could be mistaken for some kind of financial contribution.

I don't mean wait til the kid can have an intelligent conversation - just 6 months, a year. No harm in it.