When A Narcissist Is 'good'

[Anarchy]

<multi like>
I need to catch up on this

Ye olde engineere's tricke;
if you want to study the effects of something very small - make it bigger
other people's more extreme experiences are helping me see my far less extreme but still "not good enough" experiences and the effects that they have on me

I can certainly see myself repeatedly returning into that trapped and barely supported state:tdown:

:hug:

 

[shimmerz]

I can certainly see myself repeatedly returning into that trapped and barely supported state:tdown:

Much love to you my friend.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

And they get ENRAGED (1 of them) or incredibly VINDICTIVE (the 2nd one of them) when their sense of reality towards their father is challenged. And it is directed at me, when I am available, which as a mother, of course, I had always made myself available. That was a mistake.

I know the feeling of feeling enraged and vindictive when anyone (usually just my therapist as my family loved them, and the lady when i was 18 - 19) said anything bad about my mom & step dad. I told my therapist once that I was having thoughts of hurting him, which scared me as Ive never had thoughts of hurting someone before. He wasnt shocked or upset or fazed at all.

Directed at you. Maybe that has to do with the one saying bad things or even "the opposing side". The one saying it like it is the most?

I was able to come out of my own pain with this and see his instead. It changed completely how I spoke with him and we got somewhere.

Yay! Im so happy about that! I can certianly see, myself back when i was defending them the most, if someone would have gentley spoken to me about reality without putting them down, not sure how one would do that but if one could, i would have been more receptive.

My therapist just talked a lot about his family to let me see that wasnt normal or every family and then started his gentle probing and countering. We went back and forth like a court for a long time and in the end id say "i know it doesnt make sense but i believe it anyway" and we did that for a long time.

Im sorry, im rambling too much about me. It sounds like you are getting somewhere and thats a great thing! Keep that up!

 

[shimmerz]

Im sorry, im rambling too much about me.

Nope, you aren't. I actually used this strategy and it makes sense. Externalizing makes what point I am trying to make very non threatening. So I spoke about my family (which are all dead at this point) and how things change in families. Totally changed everything. So talking about you isn't a bad thing at all. It is super helpful.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

So talking about you isn't a bad thing at all. It is super helpful.

:) I seem to talk and ramble about me a lot. Im so glad its helping! Just let me know if you hit something where you need more talking about me lol! :hug:

 

[shimmerz]

I seem to talk and ramble about me a lot.

I did (and still catch myself doing) that too. I think it is part of the 'processing' stage. It doesn't bother me at all. Please don't worry about it here.

 

[shimmerz]

Directed at you. Maybe that has to do with the one saying bad things or even "the opposing side".

Yes. Having thought about this since you posted it, the conversation this week with my youngest son changed because I externalized for him (using examples of my family).

I knew that what his father is doing to them is bad. It was a horror when I realized they were going to work for him.... I knew he was really going to have them then .... but perhaps if I had known what I know now (because of this thread), I would have broached the topic in a different way.

So yes, the mother of all rules (pardon the pun), is to not be seen as the one who states the obvious. Because things can take a hell of a turn for the worse in an instant. And that feeds the narcissist even more.

I also wanted to state, that after all of this time that he has had with them, he is being seen as 'disinterested'. Because he has others do his battle for them, it looks like he doesn't give a crap about any of it. So to my children it looks like I am attacking them because they have picked up the weapons for him and he feigns complete indifference.

 

[scout86]

There is a metaphor some people use in horse training. You have to construct a situation so there's an "open door", put a little pressure on the horse so he's looking, the let him find the door. You can't make him find it. For him to learn, you have to let him find it, even if he goes every wrong direction possible first. It's hard to do, but it works. I think it works pretty well with people too.

 

[shimmerz]

put a little pressure on the horse so he's looking, the let him find the door

Yes, and this is the middle ground I am looking for. The way I applied pressure before was by stating the potential problems as I saw them. No more.

Having been away from them all for over a year now, it is much easier to stand back from my 'mother she bear protective side' and just listen. And if I can't externalize something for them, so be it.

Thanks Scout. As always, brilliance from you.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

Having been away from them all for over a year now, it is much easier to stand back from my 'mother she bear protective side' and just listen. And if I can't externalize something for them, so be it.

That's great that your doing that! Listening is super duper important. If they feel hurt because of their father, that would be a perfect time to listen, hear, acknowledge, and talk a bit about your family (any that were a normal relationship) because they will later think about that and if he did hurt them, they arent likely to go back and tell him.

I say "if" in italics because being fully "brainwashed", there is no "hurt by" because it all gets reasoned out as justified because i was bad or did bad or made him do XYZ because i did ABC. Etc. So there may not be a time where they feel hurt BUT there may be a time their should feel hurt and if you can zero in on that and say (id say it would work even if its a lie as long as they didnt know better...didnt know this family member or a pretend friend) "well I was hurt when my aunt did XYZ" or whomever. It can help them see that not feeling hurt isnt normal.

Does any of that make sense? Certianly you cant act like a therapist or anything but there are subtle things you can say that can make a huge difference. And it seems you are doing that and its great.

A horse looking for the opening, I think that's what this is about. You can talk about normal relationships you've had that shows them that this isnt normal (all without putting him down) and it will shows them that the opening isnt here but its behind them and help them to turn around, you know? Its not about "putting pressure on" but rather "this isnt normal" but maybe its the same thing.

 

[scout86]

That "Wait! This isn't necessary?" is what I'm thinking of as "pressure". The current situation just has to be uncomfortable enough for the thought of exploring options to come to mind.

One of the big benefits of therapy (and my T does a lot of those stories that give examples of how other families operate too) has been helping me consider that are actually ARE alternatives.

It's got to be hard to be calm about this both because it's your kids and because you know full well that YOU are not the problem. (wishing you & them much luck)

 

[lostforgottensoul]

One of the big benefits of therapy (and my T does a lot of those stories that give examples of how other families operate too) has been helping me consider that are actually ARE alternatives.

Yes! This went on for me for years. I wasnt budging at all about my parents being right right right, always, so he just started to casully talk about his family, just like he was changing the subject and just talking, though the subject wasnt really changed and he wasnt just talking, and gosh, id say he had to talk about almost nothing but his family for about a year straight before he started to try to draw parralls or trying to get me to compare to my parents. I wasnt willing to still so it gradually happened over yet another year.

One can say those were two wasted years but if it didnt happen like that, i wouldnt be calling them abusive today and be able to see that this isnt normal.

He would also talk about past patients a lot, no names or anything, just situation and beliefs. Gave me the abilty to see that not only wasnt normal but my thinking was normal for someone severely abused.

There are some "special" stuff like rituals/punishments carried over but mainly this worked wonders.