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Women/feminists deny male victimhood

#26
I've definitely read the kinds of authors you are talking about and I want to agree with the poster upthread (Sorry it took me all day to finish this thread because I was distracted so I forgot who) who said that these kinds of radical feminists are of the same ilk as the KKK. There are always going to be people who are on the fringes/extreme end of every topic. Kind of like how there are mens rights activists who think all women are abusers if they are not having sex with them right now. Both ends of the spectrum can contain elements of truth (a broken clock is right twice a day) but that doesn't mean they are RIGHT all of the time or about all points.

Unfortunately I think that the extreme points of view have to exist in society as a whole in order to move the needle on the status quo. Do I think the extremists should write policy or decide who gets support for their trauma? Oh gosh no. But I think that the extremist feminists bring nuance to some academic (in the useless, navel gazing sense of the word) conversations the way that mens rights activists have done a really wonderful thing by increasing the amount of custody fathers usually get in divorce.

More women are supported when they are beaten now partially because of extremists. More fathers get 50/50 or full custody instead of every other weekend partially because of extremists.

Does that mean that either extreme point of view should dominate the narrative or dictate the TRUTH to society? Absolutely not.

I utterly despise the KKK but I can understand wanting to feel like your culture is something to be proud of and wanting to feel like you deserve to be preserved going forth in history. I don't like their methods, their culture, their beliefs, or their mannerisms but I can understand wanting to find a way to find pride in oneself and that getting twisted in the process.

I can understand why some men truly hate women and see women as the source of their pain. Do I think they are right? No.

I can understand why some women need to see men as evil and the source of their pain. Do I think they are right? No.

Life is in the gray areas. There is always more than one truth going on at a time. And sometimes for ones own self preservation it is important to be able to say "I can see that you need to believe that and I am going to walk away from this conversation to let you have space for it."

Sometimes I really struggle with accepting that POC in the US need to be allowed to fully express their rage at white people. I stay out of the spaces where they voice their pain and develop their theories for the most part because I need to not make it about me. It isn't really about me as a single person. I can do my part among my own in group to try and cause less pain--I can choose to talk to white people about institutional racism and how things need to change, I can talk to women about why we need to not abuse men, I can talk to abuse survivors about why we need to not lash out at people just because we hurt like a wild animal... but I don't need to be in the other camps conversations.

They are going to mess up sometimes and I don't need to add to the pain in my life by volunteering myself as an audience member for some of their screw ups.
 
#28
@Freida thinks that the women of MyPTSD will tell me that this is bullshit, that men can be abused as much as women can, and men deserve to have the same resources as women. So I leave it here for all to respond. Women of MyPTSD, what are your thoughts?
Absolutely men can be victims too and absolutely they need and deserve support.

Someone commented about answering a 911 call where the initial assumption was a female victim and it was actually the male who was and then mentioned that, in cases like that, a lot of times the next question is "I wonder what HE did before that happened." Sounds pretty much like the questions asked about female rape victims, "What was she doing THERE? What did she expect to happen, dressed like that? She must have been leading him on." etc. It doesn't surprise me at all that victim blaming happens with victims of any gender. The psychology behind victim blaming is probably gender neutral.

I think there are a lot of varieties of "feminism". On one extreme, you've got haters. If you dug around in their background, I'd bet most of them have had experiences that led them to that point. Doesn't make it right, of course, because all men are not the same and it isn't fair to judge them all based on the worst of them. Just like all women aren't the same. What I wish for is a gender neutral movement that says everyone has the right to be who and what they are and encourages all people to be the best version of themselves.
 
#29
The psychology behind victim blaming is probably gender neutral.
Yep. Because it has nothing to do with the person/people it’s directed to... but, instead? Is a self-defense mechanism.

It makes people “feel safe”* to assign a reason (that they can avoid) to the things they’re afraid of happening to them. What that reason is? Will tell you a whoooooole helluva lot about what that person is afraid of, or what they feel in control of. And usually zip zero zilch nada nothing about the victim, themselves, or their situation. It’s closely linked to assigning outside cause to your own problems, but character defects to other people’s problems.

Classic example? THEY slipped because they’re careless / lazy / don’t pay attention/ shouldn’t have been there/ too far /etc... BUT I slipped because there was an icy patch (or loose rock, uneven stair, etc.), anyone would have slipped!

Since victim blaming is a self defence mechanism? The only gender that matters is the observer. Because it’s all about them. Not the person they’re observing. ((It can be fun to call them on it, by the by. Since they’ve just waved a neon sign shouting their insecurities at you. :sneaky: But I’m not a very nice person.))

* This is a big part of why the whole “feel safe” thing can kiss my ass. Most of the things people do to feel safe? Are total bullshit.
 
#30
I’m attempting to increase my understanding of the victim blaming concept....so please bare with me cuz my neurons aren’t fully functional lately.

With what you said in mind @Friday - is it then fair to say that women who deny male victimhood are assigning a reason to the thing they’re afraid of happening to them....

They’re taking away the right of a male victim to claim injury/danger/harm because they fear those things themselves, perpetrated by males. They can’t fathom that a male would/could be a victim. So it gets denied and the male is accused of lying or manipulating the system for some benefit.
 
#31
It’s a similar concept to how race was treated not that long ago in the US. A person of color is someone to be feared because they’re “different”, they make an easy scapegoat for everything wrong everywhere. So if we just avoid them or corral them into our control then we will be safe from them 🙄. Never mind the very basic human rights being stripped away. But it’s the idea that there is a fear so let’s assign that fear to something we can manage/avoid/see and then we will be “safe”. Another example is witches, whether they were real or actually practicing or not, the Church feared things they couldn’t explain, the witches were an easy scapegoat and voila let’s annihilate them so we can be “safe”.

It’s fear (either from actual experiences or anecdotes from others) that has to have a place, it has to materialize somehow so that it can be managed and seen.
 
Thread starter #32
All,

I'm bowing out of this thread because I don't want to feed the demons in my brain any more than I have already. While points have been made that such feminists exist and may possibly even have a use (I'd dispute that part), I believe they are dead wrong about this issue, and recent events have proven that it's actually harmful for me to hear this debate at all. I need to stick to the thought that people who hold this belief are so f*cked that they're not even worth thinking about.

One final thing before I bow out of this thread forever:
I'd challenge anyone to find a piece of published, peer-reviewed research that DOES attempt to make this argument.
Here you go:
 
#33
Not tagging, since you're out - but just to say, neither of those articles try and make that argument. I went through them pretty carefully.

BUT: I understand how we see generalizations when it's a topic that is triggering. Totally get it.

Sometimes we only know how to offer the help that we ourselves would use...For me, it's extremely helpful to read research in a thorough, detailed, completely unemotional manner - even when I don't like what it says.

It seems like for you, this kind of material isn't helpful. And that also makes sense - because nothing interferes with unemotional analysis like a hot-button trigger.

I 100% agree that this is very smart:
I need to stick to the thought that people who hold this belief are so f*cked that they're not even worth thinking about.
My personal hope is, you can someday be able to do that without also generalizing who those people are. Because just calling them "feminists" and/or "academics"....that's the distortion.

It's about as accurate as saying "doctors are bad" when one means "I don't trust dermatologists".

Distortions are hard, no doubt. Especially the ones that sync up with core beliefs. It's very hard to work on that stuff when stress cup is full, or when triggers are omni-present.
 
Thread starter #34
My personal hope is, you can someday be able to do that without also generalizing who those people are. Because just calling them "feminists" and/or "academics"....that's the distortion.
Can I call them "crazy people?" 😐 That's fair, right? Or "people who hold a wrong, f*cked up, crazy belief?"

Of course, some of the people who hold these beliefs self-identify as feminists, and some of them are academics. But not all - and probably very few - academics and feminists hold these wrong, f'ed up, crazy beliefs.

How's that? 😕
 
#35
I think it's fantastic.
Of course, some of the people who hold these beliefs self-identify as feminists, and some of them are academics. But not all - and probably very few - academics and feminists hold these wrong, f'ed up, crazy beliefs.
Because yes, right here, this is it. This entire statement is right on the money.
Or "people who hold a wrong, f*cked up, crazy belief?"
That's what I'd go with - because yeah, they do. I mean, making it one's life's work to prove a logical fallacy (aka a f*cked up crazy belief like the one this thread is about) is shitty academics and I'd say, bullshit feminism. And really - the people doing that are not at all worth your time or your energy, or what it costs your psyche. Let them talk to themselves, because honestly - those are the only people they're going to listen to, anyway. Themselves.

And thanks for coming back - not just here, but this thread. I know it's hard to hear this kind of compliment (especially when low-self-esteem is a thing in your life), but you're doing great work, and it's hard shit you're managing. Thanks for sharing all of it.
 
#36
There was a press conference some time ago by a very experienced male detective who was investigating the murder/suicide of a father, mother & children. The father killed his family then himself. The crime was horrific & I'll go no further with the details.

The detective, at the press conference was releasing information & commented words similar to, 'we will have to thoroughly investigate this matter, I don't know what could have driven him to do this'. (Don't quote me on the exact wording but the word 'driven' was in it.

Anyway, there was outrage, there was indignation, there were cry's for 'off with his head'. Such a huge media beat up. It was blasted out that this detective was wrong, worse than wrong & should be sacked, and detested by all forever! Those doing the loudest yelling were the fringes, the pc's, the usual vigilant crew who don't investigate anything, not even their own beliefs.

The police service he represented came out in force and again and again, explained that this officer was very experienced, had worked to prevent DV for 30 years & was opposed to DV of any nature. and that his comments never intended to mean that the woman (victim) must have done something to drive the husband (offender) to do this heinous crime. Victim blaming.

What the police officer meant and what got lost in all the subsequent noise was that the utter tragedy of this situation was that he (the husband and offender) was also a victim in that he somehow felt/believed that he had no other option but to commit the crime that he did. The detective wasn't excusing the offender. Not once.

The police officer was mortified that his words had been twisted to mean a misogynistic meaning. He was taken off the investigation, not because those that stopped and thought about it didn't understand but the meaning to the public was lost & it seemed impossible to get his true reasoning out there.

My point here is that we, the public must try to have a more sophisticated view of DV and all of it's victims than the usual 'message' that is trotted out.

If one is at all interested in understanding the human behaviour that results in DV then one must accept that a nuanced approach is necessary. The fringes have their messages, the left & right have their place, the centre is always just shy of the middle. All we can do is keep trying and keep sending home the one truth. DV is wrong & there is another way for all genders.
 
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