News Worldwide impact of the novel coronavirus (covid-19)

[Tornadic Thoughts]

Yes, @lostforgottensoul , it's in the US.

The folks I spoke with are very close friends of family members of the deceased who had received copies of the death certificates clearly stating covid-19 under the cause of death. I have no reason not to trust them. I didn't ask if they saw it themselves, which I highly doubt they would have since they are practicing physical distancing.

I also didn't ask if it was listed as the main cause of death, or if it was part of a multiple listing. However, since covid was never presumed or discussed and the doctors never communicated any suspicion of or concern of them having it with the families, it seems more than strange that it's listed at all.

I dug a little deeper with some searches and found several articles addressing the same concern, but this article included a 7 page document regarding vital statistics reporting (this is also the first time I've seen or heard of this particular website, so I'm not sure of its perceived validity by others):

HUGE! MN Senator and Dr. Reveals HHS Document Coached Him on How to Overcount COVID-19 Cases -- WITH COPY OF DOCUMENT (VIDEO)

I tried to read all 7 pages of the document, but my brain isn't absorbing it. To me, it sounds as though death certificates can note it if a medical professional presumed they had it, even if they didn't directly die from it, and even if they hadn't tested positive based on tests not being readily available or 100% accurate?

I can sort of understand the dying with it vs. dying from it, and having it listed as one of the potential, or multiple, causes of death, but these folks didn't even have it on the radar from what their family members shared. Whatever is going on, it feels pretty unsettling on top of the already unsettling feelings brought to the surface.

ETA: In my searching earlier, I also found multiple sources stating how drastically the pneumonia death rates have dropped since the covid issue arose, as if one is replacing the other? To my brain, it's all about as clear as mud.

 

[Friday]

Especially since this is a very popular story currently being pushed by the Covid deniers.

Especially as it doesn’t take into account that almost no one suffocates from acute pulmonary failure. What usually happens is when the pulmonary system collapses? The Cardiopulmonary system collapses. Meaning that starved of oxygen, the heart seizes. ((Which is why very very rarely a person can be put on a cardiac bypass machine, to function as a heart whilst the lungs heal enough to function)). IE, people not able to breathe? Usually die of a heart attack.

Similarly, the problem with strong antibiotics, in particular certain combos of antibiotics, is that they “box” your kidneys. If the antibiotics kill the infection, dialysis can keep you alive for months, whilst on a kidney transplant list. If they don’t kill the infection, you’ll die of kidney failure before you die of the infection.

So, what is commonly happening with Cov19? People are dying of heart attack and kidney failure. But the cause of the heart attack is lack of oxygen from the infection, and the cause of the kidney failure is the medicine they’re taking to kill the infection.

 

[siniang]

So, what is commonly happening with Cov19? People are dying of heart attack and kidney failure. But the cause of the heart attack is lack of oxygen from the infection, and the cause of the kidney failure is the medicine they’re taking to kill the infection.

And sepsis. Because...yeah...organs simply can't function without O2.

 

[Tornadic Thoughts]

So if they didn't already have it, nor were ever tested for it or presumed to have it, but die of heart attack or kidney failure, it'll just automatically be presumed it was covid? That gets my spidey senses tingling in some very uncomfortable ways.

 

[Sideways]

I can sort of understand the dying with it vs. dying from it, and having it listed as one of the potential, or multiple, causes of death,

This seems far more likely - that the death certificates noted that the person had Covid at the time of death.

Because death certificates are typically heavily medicalised documents. Even if a person "dies of Covid" in lay terms, the death certificate will most likely list respiratory arrest, or cardiac arrest, as the cause of death, or primary cause of death.

And, in many parts of the world right now (not everywhere) if a person has flu or pneumonia symptoms at the time of death, then in some places there's a high chance they had covid, but insufficient resources to determine that with certainty.

There's an equal number of reports that Covid deaths are being massively under-reported in many places, because testing the massive number of people who have passed away is not a priority, so they simply don't make it into the stats.

 

[ms spock]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1249555421301559297

so many brave folks working for us all.

Putting their lives on the line. One thing I was thinking is campaigning for is higher wages for nurses. I was chatting to a Nurse from the US and she was saying it would be good for some of the Nurses she knows not to be on food stamps. That gave me a real shock. In Australia, nurses experience the highest level violence of any workplace.

A report came out many years ago now, that if they actually hired enough nurses to take over all the unpaid overtime that Nurses do they would hire another 457 Nurses.

It would be good as well as clapping for those that put their lives on the line if we could actually campaign for better working conditions and pay for Nurses.

 

[Tornadic Thoughts]

Thanks for the responses. I think if anything about covid, and numerous other issues and such, ever made total sense to me, I'd run like hell, because up until now, it seems like one big cluster-f*ck, and then some. My heart aches for the folks suffering from it, for their families, for the losses, and for the front-line folks carrying the heavy load of trying to be all things to all the people.

 

[ms spock]

So, what is commonly happening with Cov19? People are dying of heart attack and kidney failure. But the cause of the heart attack is lack of oxygen from the infection, and the cause of the kidney failure is the medicine they’re taking to kill the infection.

A Chinese Whistle Blower Doctor said that as well. That patients recover the first time but the second time with Covid19 patients were dying of heart attacks. So it makes sense that is now happening in the US. Whatever has happened in China will now happen in other countries that have Covid19. It's just China has seen how it pans out where everyone else is still scrambling to work it out.

In Coronavirus: Into the Red Zone that Italian hospital was getting phone calls from doctors from the US every how asking questions about how to deal with certain situations and manifestations of Covid19 which would be complicated by patient medical histories and genetics of their families.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

So, what is commonly happening with Cov19? People are dying of heart attack and kidney failure. But the cause of the heart attack is lack of oxygen from the infection, and the cause of the kidney failure is the medicine they’re taking to kill the infection

Can't they test the person after death to see if the virus was there?

 

[Friday]

And sepsis. Because...yeah...organs simply can't function without O2.

Yep yep. And as organs are starved of o2, they start to die. Not enough to fail -yet- but enough to go septic &/or gangrenous. Which poisons the entire body, kills off more parts of organs, and voila. Septic shock, or multi organ system failure.

One of the saddest things? People self-medicating at home following bullshit treatment regimes propagated by online, pseudoscience, & fake news nonsense don’t know enough to realize the toxic interaction those meds have with meds that WORK. So they go in for medical help when things get bad, are given a relatively safe drug as a starter treatment, and BANG! Kidney failure, or liver failure, or cardic muscle death, or blood toxicity. Because you CANNOT mix what they were dosing themselves with and the safest treatments available.

it'll just automatically be presumed it was covid?

Nope. Testing corpses is -usually- far easier than testing living people. Because you don’t have to wait for samples to grow. You just cut into them and find the telltale physiological markers. That process would kill a healthy person, much less someone who is already sick... so we swab areas that are easy to reach, with the highest concentrations of the infection (in easy access areas), smear them on blood-agar, and wait for them to grow. (With Living people). Which takes a few days for colonies to develop, which can then be sampled and looked at.

* when you get a nose or throat swab? Most people are going to have been 10-50 types of colonies start growing on the blood agar. (Heck. If you wash your hands, then rub your thumb behind your ear, and put your thumb on the Petrie dish? You’ll usually get a dozen or more. Healthcare workers will get staph or strep 80% of the time when they do that, because their bodies are under so much constant exposure to staff and strep that they’ve become carriers to one, the other, or both. Preschool, workers, though are the ones with the highest concentration of pathogenic microbes! Because here around immature immune systems all day. <<< Behind the ear? Is both the place least washed, and one place where the immune system rarely ventures. Your skin protects it, and the oils hold onto things. So things just LIVE back there, between showers & thorough scrubbing ). When you’re looking for a specific thing, you know what color the colonies are and what shape they are, so you sample each of those colonies and look at them under a microscope. (Or perform a few weed out tests, like seeing what’s gram positive, or gram negative, etc. first).

The “quick” tests, for various infections? Aren’t actually testing for the microbe. (Which is also why they have a high failure rate). They’re testing for markers... like being halophobic, or producing a certain kind of acid they excrete. Most infections cannot be quick tested, because they aren’t unique in their weaknesses or wastes. You have to grow the colonies. By sampling the area, then smearing it on a food source. Without an immune system? ALL the microbes party on, growing colonies. Hence the 10-50 different types of infections. Your immune system has no problem wih 49 of them, it’s only the 1 you’re looking for.

Below is a super simple single infection (staph aureus) being tested. Now, imagine the below with dozens of shade of off white, some turquoise, pink, orange, etc. some shaped like frying eggs, others like bubbles, or planets with rings. That’s what a normal Petrie dish -from a throat or nose swab- would look like.

Long, involved sampling and testing process... vs... Cut open and pull out a lung. Make a slice, and look at it under magnification. Or just jab them with a grabber... no need to worry about lung collapse, or hitting blood vessels or nerves, just grab the piece of tissue you need to look at. Because your patient is already dead In either case? Days lab testing vs minutes with someone who has already passed.

Of course, you can also just take a swab from a corpse, and grow those samples. That‘S common practice to confirm, when time isn’t an issue. When time IS an issue, it’s far easier to grab a piece of tissue and look at it. You CAN biopsy a living person, being very very careful about the damage you cause, but a swab is waaaaay less invasive.

 

[siniang]

Can't they test the person after death to see if the virus was there?

In theory, yes, and it's being done int some places, but in most places there's currently very very limited resources for proper autopsies (aka just too many deaths, currently)

 

[Friday]

Nope

Correction.

Places deluged by Covid deaths? Yes. Are going to presume. When you have 40 bodies -today- who’ve died of cardiac failure / kidney failure, etc... and 30 of them have tested positive, and 10 are presumed? (Or 120, or 500, etc.). All 40 (Or 120, or 500) of them are going to get the same certificate. Even if 1 or 2 are actually dying of, say, secondary or tertiary cardiomyopathy following a blah blah blah infection.

Samples will be taken from each person to confirm... but they’ll be low priority whilst living patients top the queue in the lab... and the families wil almost never be told of the correction made later in the charts. Because grief & humane practices. Their loved one has died. That the cause was off? A secondary infection, rather than a primary infection? Doesn’t reeeeeally matter much, in an epidemic or pandemic. Because nothing would have been done differently, or could have been done differently. They were getting the same treatment as they would have gotten, anyway. Where families WILL be told, is if it’s something like a congenital heart defect, or a parasite or bacterium likely to be infecting others... aka... there’s reason for the living to know, as they need to be tested, to save their own lives.