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I was hoping you might have suggestions on how to find a good marriage consulting in adelaide @anthony not to sure where to start looking
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Dont ever feel like you need to tread carefully @Alice.in.Wonderland.
We need honesty like yours here, and id never be offended, I understand people are trying only to help. Be blunt if that's you, I'm fantastic at taking criticism, its what I do best ;)
And you just managed to hit me hard with a truth that we have both gently discussed, or danced around, but neither have fully grasped yet I'm sure.
I've been thinking on how to reply for a while now, here goes, I think this will help open a dialogue, both internally and hopefully with each other, and I'm sorry, its gonna be long again :(
I'm jumping on this before I shut down once more.
Oh yeah I know about codependency :(
My last relationship was built on it, my kids dad 'saved' me from my parents (pedophile father, codependant, yes the irony, and enabling Mother, she knew of the abuse and covered it for many years, never left him and blamed me, or chose to see me as the other woman in her life and would beat me black and blue at every opportunity, which was many because she had a short fuse, sometimes a smile when she was sad would get me beaten, she never liked me much and me happy was like a reminder of her own misery) and for taking me from that, and being the first person to say I love you, i felt i owed him for the longest time.
And even though he was an emotionally abusive drunk, and i worked and raised the kids pretty much alone, i felt like i couldnt 'do it' without him, i had no faith in my own ability to be a parent. I thought I needed him to be worthy.
In the end I didn't leave him until his abuse went toward the children and not just me, my safety was never enough reason to leave, and while the kids wanted him around i stayed. (I thought they'd never seen it, but I now know they saw what I suffered all along, they just blamed me like both myself and their dad did for a long time, so would treat me like their father a lot rather than question his torture, they were babies, who learned from us, and their impatience with me for instigating his anger further confirmed my thoughts of myself)
It was them suffering his suicide threats first hand for the first time and then saying they wanted him out of our lives that made me finally act in our best interests.
I was sickeningly codependant then, even more so than now, my ex had me convinced that everything, even his behaviour was my fault and something I had to fix to make him be nice, I deserved his wrath. The reason I started therapy for my trauma in my youth was because he told me i was 'crazy' and it must be my past causing it, because id get uncontrollably angry that he would desert us for months at a time working and drinking, and leaving me alone at age 19 with 2 small children, totally isolated. I'd go weeks without human contact and then lose it when he'd spend his time off work elsewhere, of course I was miserable and angry. I can see that now, but at the time i thought that was my role, and I was ungrateful for him working so hard, and mean for not wanting him to drink when he earned that right after his difficult job (I was scared of him drunk because he would torture me for hours, even lying under our bed and kicking the mattress if i tried to sleep, he wanted me awake and trying to stop him killing himself, he'd 'attempt' up to 6 different methods in a night, and each time would be worse, and he would die and it would be because I didn't love him enough to let him be himself. He would do ANYTHING to get to me after a night on a binge, and would often walk hours from other towns, just to hear me get angry (which I fell for until learning how to placate him and hold my tongue at about age 21, from therapy, though my therapists never knew they were teaching me how to avoid abuse, I never told a soul, because I was ashamed that i deserved it, just like from my parents) I saved him from drowning, gassing himself in the car, slicing his wrists, hanging himself and jumping from a cliff all in one night. The night my grandpa (and only man who never hurt me) died he made it about him by deciding to walk 170kms home from work blind drunk in the middle of nowhere because I wasn't able to come get him. I was 7 hours away with my pa, and i left the second he passed, driving through the night and searching for him for 12 hours, this was how i showed love, and a good partner is always there and loyal right? I was awful for making him walk, and he was cold, now take me home and I don't care how sad you are about your pa, my legs hurt. Goodnight.
He never had a licence or paid a bill in the entire 17 years, I was responsible.
I broke out at one point, during therapy when I accidently let too much out, I was trying to learn how to have sex without freezing up (because I was a 'deadroot' who'd want that?) or by vomitting by drinking and sleeping with strangers, he found out and it was even more fuel for his treatment of me, I was now a whore and unloyal as well, and I continued with the shame, and being sorry for my clear inadequacies as a human.
I went off track, on a roll here looking at all the things that id buried so long, that really weren't my fault at all. I couldn't see it. I didn't even see what he was doing as abuse until close to the end when a lovely police officer id called out (because he was starting to drag the kids in) pointed out that nothing I could do would deserve this, and innocent kids surely didn't (more to hate myself for, I thought I protected my kids, from sexual and physical abuse maybe, but I know better than most, its the emotional abuse that leave the most profound scars, and my kids have seen all I have and maybe some more)
My eldest daughter took the reigns once he was gone, a weight way too much to bare at 14 :(
I was terrified and drowned myself in drink, and self destructive behaviour similar to what I did years later when Ray left, and when I was isolates all those years before, right when my kids needed me to show them strength, and also nurture them like a real Mum should.
(I've never been angry or abusive to my kids, but emotionally I have been terribly absent, only there if they ask outright, I cant read signals like a normal mum should and I've no idea how to show affection, except by doing what they ask all the time, and a hug only if requested, I physically did everything for them, but emotionally they probably raised me, and showed me how to love them by their childish requests and often I was impatient with those. (realising how much like my own mother this sounds) Shit, having more than one epiphany tonight.
My daughter didn't relax and let herself be a kid again (from age 14) until Ray had picked up the ball, probably about 8 months after he and I met and almost 2 years since their dad left the scene.
And then she fell apart. Became suicidal (the only way she knew how to reach out and let me know she wasn't well because she never learned to ask for help, she saw me meet her Dads needs, and comfort him only when he ws attempting) self harmed, and developed an eating disorder.
This is where Rays 'issues' come in. He knew I was a mess from the beginning, and identified my daughters problems when he met the children about 6 months in.
So he took the reigns from her, as his problems lie in the fact that he gets his self worth from 'saving damaged women', his last relationship was with a young mum who was a mess also, and interestingly, their relationship ended when she had healed her problems and no longer 'needed him'
He thinks this comes from his mothers fatal battle with cancer, but I believe its deeper, his Mum was a single Mother also, she rarely dated after Rays Dad, and I feel like he may have become her 'protector' quite young, like my own daughter, the two of them are so much alike in so many ways. And through writing this, myself too hey, I seek Rays weakness out (the cause of this thread, and my 'trust issues early on, that he wont let me see his own suffering at all, he's preoccupied with only protecting us, and has no needs of his own, denying any issues very angrily and claiming that I'm a perfect wife just for making dinner and cleaning his clothes. Thats not enough for me though, and there's ya drama right there Alice. Wow, I almost totally denied that we seek drama at the beginning of this, just because we dont argue out loud, only pick at each other by text about our mistakes) thats all I know how to nurture, is suffering. I can only comfort terrible trauma, and keep searching til I find it
My incessant need understand his drug problem is that isn't it? I'm looking for something, that I can take responsibility for, be sorry about and then 'make up for'
I kind of understood this about my drunken sex with strangers, while we were separated, I needed a reason for him to hate me, since I couldn't understand his explanations.
I have a need to be a martyr. Just like him. Wow.
I've also always adopted neglected kids, many of my sisters friends lived with me in my later years of isolation (all 7 plus years younger) and my kids friends come to me before their parents too. (I used to gain self worth from this, until my kids told me that it took away from what they needed of me, and Ray felt the same, so I stopped) we are so much a like that I couldn't even see it until now.
I've sort of seen its for like that for him already.
Ive felt a long time that his Mum, like myself with my eldest, treated him more as a friend or confidant, a partner of sorts I guess more than a child. I fear telling him this though because he is terribly sensitive about anything he perceives as negative about his Mum, and rightly so as she is deceased. I've broached it in part, gently, and he is non responsive.
Just like his drug past, I know the signals he makes that mean stop, and ive overstepped once for which he's never forgiven me, nor me myself for that matter. Another thing I get to regret from being a drunk with loud mouth.
I dont think she was bad for doing this, or even wrong, just lonely, and I wonder did Ray reject the idea of her moving on with another partner, he's pretty forward about his needs being an only child.
(read with open mind babe, and don't take it as a fault on either of you, life is like this sometimes, you were just a kid, and she wanted to give you all the happiness in the world)
Well then, its pretty natural next to assume the kids and I were his next damsel in distress.
So he picked up the slack, and slowly the kids and I regained strength.
It took almost the entire time Ray and I were together, but by the time we married, we were all on track and doing well.
The kids had resolved their daddy issues and relied on Ray as much as they did myself.
The only real issues left were ones between Ray and I that went unspoken, like my continual inability to trust him at his word (I created the drama you speak of that I'm so accustomed to by constantly accusing him of taking drugs again, I had myself convinced ALL the time that he was hiding it, as my ex had done for years with his drinking. He wasn't, he didn't go back to that life til he left, I know this now its too late. He was determined never to expose us to that life, and I've always felt one of his reasons for leaving was that he was slipping, and would use soon, though he denies that strongly, claiming at different times to not have touched them for months, and then sometimes he says a year after we left. The topic of todays 'stuff'. I cant let it rest because I couldn't understand why he left, and his reasoning leaves all blame on me, and I'm bloody trying hard to break out of this issue, as I know its the core reason for ALL my issues.
Taking too much responsibility, just like my daughter, I raised my Mother, not vise versa, and my siblings, quite literally.
I've had custody of both my sisters, from 12 til 19 with our middle one, and then when I could, I saved our baby sister from my dad and another pedo my mum lived with, when she 10 and then again when she was 17. Ive paid my Mothers bills for her, forced her to get help and protected her and my sisters from my father by taking his abuse without question since I was 7, and keeping it secret.
He only did those things to me because 'i asked for them, by being suggestive as a toddler'
I've always been like this, and its all always been all my fault.
8 years of therapy couldn't shake it because i never told my doctors the bad things my kids Dad did, they all thought I was irrational (probably how I.got the PTSD diagnosis, when I think maybe I dont after reading how much worse it can be for others here)
Talking through all this now makes me realise, Ray talked a lot after he left of not feeling like he had his place here, like we didn't 'need' him.
He wasn't able to articulate that correctly,possibly because he didn't understand it either, but I think the reason he left was because his ego needed for him to be constantly 'saving' us to give him self worth, and we no longer had problems.
You know, he didn't commit to coming back again until I let go and started to come apart at the seems again around the end of last year.
I had learned to stand alone and not be so dependant, my faith in my ability to do it alone had grown over time, and I was even happy living here alone, mostly.
My drinking was getting worse (id had stages) and by mid last year I was self destructing again. Badly.
Partially because Ray was dangling carrots, letting me think we would work on things, and then withdrawing whenever I requested anything. This sent me spiralling into codependancy once again, which I decided was abandonment issues.. But.. Well.
I think I am getting your point totally now :(
He's back because I'm weak and he sees a purpose for himself here again now huh?
We need honesty like yours here, and id never be offended, I understand people are trying only to help. Be blunt if that's you, I'm fantastic at taking criticism, its what I do best ;)
And you just managed to hit me hard with a truth that we have both gently discussed, or danced around, but neither have fully grasped yet I'm sure.
I've been thinking on how to reply for a while now, here goes, I think this will help open a dialogue, both internally and hopefully with each other, and I'm sorry, its gonna be long again :(
I'm jumping on this before I shut down once more.
Oh yeah I know about codependency :(
My last relationship was built on it, my kids dad 'saved' me from my parents (pedophile father, codependant, yes the irony, and enabling Mother, she knew of the abuse and covered it for many years, never left him and blamed me, or chose to see me as the other woman in her life and would beat me black and blue at every opportunity, which was many because she had a short fuse, sometimes a smile when she was sad would get me beaten, she never liked me much and me happy was like a reminder of her own misery) and for taking me from that, and being the first person to say I love you, i felt i owed him for the longest time.
And even though he was an emotionally abusive drunk, and i worked and raised the kids pretty much alone, i felt like i couldnt 'do it' without him, i had no faith in my own ability to be a parent. I thought I needed him to be worthy.
In the end I didn't leave him until his abuse went toward the children and not just me, my safety was never enough reason to leave, and while the kids wanted him around i stayed. (I thought they'd never seen it, but I now know they saw what I suffered all along, they just blamed me like both myself and their dad did for a long time, so would treat me like their father a lot rather than question his torture, they were babies, who learned from us, and their impatience with me for instigating his anger further confirmed my thoughts of myself)
It was them suffering his suicide threats first hand for the first time and then saying they wanted him out of our lives that made me finally act in our best interests.
I was sickeningly codependant then, even more so than now, my ex had me convinced that everything, even his behaviour was my fault and something I had to fix to make him be nice, I deserved his wrath. The reason I started therapy for my trauma in my youth was because he told me i was 'crazy' and it must be my past causing it, because id get uncontrollably angry that he would desert us for months at a time working and drinking, and leaving me alone at age 19 with 2 small children, totally isolated. I'd go weeks without human contact and then lose it when he'd spend his time off work elsewhere, of course I was miserable and angry. I can see that now, but at the time i thought that was my role, and I was ungrateful for him working so hard, and mean for not wanting him to drink when he earned that right after his difficult job (I was scared of him drunk because he would torture me for hours, even lying under our bed and kicking the mattress if i tried to sleep, he wanted me awake and trying to stop him killing himself, he'd 'attempt' up to 6 different methods in a night, and each time would be worse, and he would die and it would be because I didn't love him enough to let him be himself. He would do ANYTHING to get to me after a night on a binge, and would often walk hours from other towns, just to hear me get angry (which I fell for until learning how to placate him and hold my tongue at about age 21, from therapy, though my therapists never knew they were teaching me how to avoid abuse, I never told a soul, because I was ashamed that i deserved it, just like from my parents) I saved him from drowning, gassing himself in the car, slicing his wrists, hanging himself and jumping from a cliff all in one night. The night my grandpa (and only man who never hurt me) died he made it about him by deciding to walk 170kms home from work blind drunk in the middle of nowhere because I wasn't able to come get him. I was 7 hours away with my pa, and i left the second he passed, driving through the night and searching for him for 12 hours, this was how i showed love, and a good partner is always there and loyal right? I was awful for making him walk, and he was cold, now take me home and I don't care how sad you are about your pa, my legs hurt. Goodnight.
He never had a licence or paid a bill in the entire 17 years, I was responsible.
I broke out at one point, during therapy when I accidently let too much out, I was trying to learn how to have sex without freezing up (because I was a 'deadroot' who'd want that?) or by vomitting by drinking and sleeping with strangers, he found out and it was even more fuel for his treatment of me, I was now a whore and unloyal as well, and I continued with the shame, and being sorry for my clear inadequacies as a human.
I went off track, on a roll here looking at all the things that id buried so long, that really weren't my fault at all. I couldn't see it. I didn't even see what he was doing as abuse until close to the end when a lovely police officer id called out (because he was starting to drag the kids in) pointed out that nothing I could do would deserve this, and innocent kids surely didn't (more to hate myself for, I thought I protected my kids, from sexual and physical abuse maybe, but I know better than most, its the emotional abuse that leave the most profound scars, and my kids have seen all I have and maybe some more)
My eldest daughter took the reigns once he was gone, a weight way too much to bare at 14 :(
I was terrified and drowned myself in drink, and self destructive behaviour similar to what I did years later when Ray left, and when I was isolates all those years before, right when my kids needed me to show them strength, and also nurture them like a real Mum should.
(I've never been angry or abusive to my kids, but emotionally I have been terribly absent, only there if they ask outright, I cant read signals like a normal mum should and I've no idea how to show affection, except by doing what they ask all the time, and a hug only if requested, I physically did everything for them, but emotionally they probably raised me, and showed me how to love them by their childish requests and often I was impatient with those. (realising how much like my own mother this sounds) Shit, having more than one epiphany tonight.
My daughter didn't relax and let herself be a kid again (from age 14) until Ray had picked up the ball, probably about 8 months after he and I met and almost 2 years since their dad left the scene.
And then she fell apart. Became suicidal (the only way she knew how to reach out and let me know she wasn't well because she never learned to ask for help, she saw me meet her Dads needs, and comfort him only when he ws attempting) self harmed, and developed an eating disorder.
This is where Rays 'issues' come in. He knew I was a mess from the beginning, and identified my daughters problems when he met the children about 6 months in.
So he took the reigns from her, as his problems lie in the fact that he gets his self worth from 'saving damaged women', his last relationship was with a young mum who was a mess also, and interestingly, their relationship ended when she had healed her problems and no longer 'needed him'
He thinks this comes from his mothers fatal battle with cancer, but I believe its deeper, his Mum was a single Mother also, she rarely dated after Rays Dad, and I feel like he may have become her 'protector' quite young, like my own daughter, the two of them are so much alike in so many ways. And through writing this, myself too hey, I seek Rays weakness out (the cause of this thread, and my 'trust issues early on, that he wont let me see his own suffering at all, he's preoccupied with only protecting us, and has no needs of his own, denying any issues very angrily and claiming that I'm a perfect wife just for making dinner and cleaning his clothes. Thats not enough for me though, and there's ya drama right there Alice. Wow, I almost totally denied that we seek drama at the beginning of this, just because we dont argue out loud, only pick at each other by text about our mistakes) thats all I know how to nurture, is suffering. I can only comfort terrible trauma, and keep searching til I find it
My incessant need understand his drug problem is that isn't it? I'm looking for something, that I can take responsibility for, be sorry about and then 'make up for'
I kind of understood this about my drunken sex with strangers, while we were separated, I needed a reason for him to hate me, since I couldn't understand his explanations.
I have a need to be a martyr. Just like him. Wow.
I've also always adopted neglected kids, many of my sisters friends lived with me in my later years of isolation (all 7 plus years younger) and my kids friends come to me before their parents too. (I used to gain self worth from this, until my kids told me that it took away from what they needed of me, and Ray felt the same, so I stopped) we are so much a like that I couldn't even see it until now.
I've sort of seen its for like that for him already.
Ive felt a long time that his Mum, like myself with my eldest, treated him more as a friend or confidant, a partner of sorts I guess more than a child. I fear telling him this though because he is terribly sensitive about anything he perceives as negative about his Mum, and rightly so as she is deceased. I've broached it in part, gently, and he is non responsive.
Just like his drug past, I know the signals he makes that mean stop, and ive overstepped once for which he's never forgiven me, nor me myself for that matter. Another thing I get to regret from being a drunk with loud mouth.
I dont think she was bad for doing this, or even wrong, just lonely, and I wonder did Ray reject the idea of her moving on with another partner, he's pretty forward about his needs being an only child.
(read with open mind babe, and don't take it as a fault on either of you, life is like this sometimes, you were just a kid, and she wanted to give you all the happiness in the world)
Well then, its pretty natural next to assume the kids and I were his next damsel in distress.
So he picked up the slack, and slowly the kids and I regained strength.
It took almost the entire time Ray and I were together, but by the time we married, we were all on track and doing well.
The kids had resolved their daddy issues and relied on Ray as much as they did myself.
The only real issues left were ones between Ray and I that went unspoken, like my continual inability to trust him at his word (I created the drama you speak of that I'm so accustomed to by constantly accusing him of taking drugs again, I had myself convinced ALL the time that he was hiding it, as my ex had done for years with his drinking. He wasn't, he didn't go back to that life til he left, I know this now its too late. He was determined never to expose us to that life, and I've always felt one of his reasons for leaving was that he was slipping, and would use soon, though he denies that strongly, claiming at different times to not have touched them for months, and then sometimes he says a year after we left. The topic of todays 'stuff'. I cant let it rest because I couldn't understand why he left, and his reasoning leaves all blame on me, and I'm bloody trying hard to break out of this issue, as I know its the core reason for ALL my issues.
Taking too much responsibility, just like my daughter, I raised my Mother, not vise versa, and my siblings, quite literally.
I've had custody of both my sisters, from 12 til 19 with our middle one, and then when I could, I saved our baby sister from my dad and another pedo my mum lived with, when she 10 and then again when she was 17. Ive paid my Mothers bills for her, forced her to get help and protected her and my sisters from my father by taking his abuse without question since I was 7, and keeping it secret.
He only did those things to me because 'i asked for them, by being suggestive as a toddler'
I've always been like this, and its all always been all my fault.
8 years of therapy couldn't shake it because i never told my doctors the bad things my kids Dad did, they all thought I was irrational (probably how I.got the PTSD diagnosis, when I think maybe I dont after reading how much worse it can be for others here)
Talking through all this now makes me realise, Ray talked a lot after he left of not feeling like he had his place here, like we didn't 'need' him.
He wasn't able to articulate that correctly,possibly because he didn't understand it either, but I think the reason he left was because his ego needed for him to be constantly 'saving' us to give him self worth, and we no longer had problems.
You know, he didn't commit to coming back again until I let go and started to come apart at the seems again around the end of last year.
I had learned to stand alone and not be so dependant, my faith in my ability to do it alone had grown over time, and I was even happy living here alone, mostly.
My drinking was getting worse (id had stages) and by mid last year I was self destructing again. Badly.
Partially because Ray was dangling carrots, letting me think we would work on things, and then withdrawing whenever I requested anything. This sent me spiralling into codependancy once again, which I decided was abandonment issues.. But.. Well.
I think I am getting your point totally now :(
He's back because I'm weak and he sees a purpose for himself here again now huh?
That was the hardest thing I've ever written in my life and I almost deleted it in fear that I hadn't taken enough responsibility for my actions.
Thank you for forcing me to examine it @Alice.in.Wonderland, without you demanding that I stop hating on myself, and look at my codependance critically, id never have got there, I didn't do it for me, or for Ray, but because I felt i needed to acknowledge what you said openly as that is polite when someone offers their time,
I never expected id go so far.
I hadn't thought about lots of this in years, and certainly not from the pov that it wasn't necessarily my fault
Ray always gets angry that I blame myself for damians drinking problems and his inability to be a good father, but I just assume he is saying it because he hates my ex.
Even though thats a lot, I have suspicions there's a flood gate about to open, and I hope very much in a good way, id been in worse state of shame than ever for months now, and it was steadily getting worse.
Thank you for forcing me to examine it @Alice.in.Wonderland, without you demanding that I stop hating on myself, and look at my codependance critically, id never have got there, I didn't do it for me, or for Ray, but because I felt i needed to acknowledge what you said openly as that is polite when someone offers their time,
I never expected id go so far.
I hadn't thought about lots of this in years, and certainly not from the pov that it wasn't necessarily my fault
Ray always gets angry that I blame myself for damians drinking problems and his inability to be a good father, but I just assume he is saying it because he hates my ex.
Even though thats a lot, I have suspicions there's a flood gate about to open, and I hope very much in a good way, id been in worse state of shame than ever for months now, and it was steadily getting worse.
UnKnown-Self
Diamond Member
Codependency has many forms. Trust me I know it well.
Most of my relationships scratch that... All of my relationships were codependent.
It stems from so many places but I think from the beginning I wanted to be saved from the situation I was born into. As I got older that desire mixed with more and more anger. People wouldn't look at me and squeal with delight "What a cute little girl!" Like I saw with other little girls who were not neglected. People would turn away or look with disgust or pity but none of it good.
Older still I found relationships with controlling abusive men who would constantly criticize and I would try to be what they wanted and the more I tried the more abusive they became. They were how I abused myself. I too emotionally abandoned my children. I would get so depressed, I had nothing to give.
My husband who passed away had been emotionally abused by controlling women all his life and I was so easy to please. He was my hero, my professor Higgins and my idolization of him made him feel great and he loved encouraging me. I had never known what it was to be treated decent. I'm blessed to have had that time. It worked great. Until it didn't . It will be one year tomorrow since he died. He betrayed me, not simply by dying oh no, he actually kicked my ass worse than any of the others and never yelled at me let alone hit me.
So stop beating yourself up. You are not alone and you make mistakes. It's how we learn.
But if you don't learn from those mistakes, the lessons will get tougher and come in different forms and leave you with bigger and bigger messes to clean up. So both of you save yourselves from unimaginable asskicking decades from now and do the work.
I really wish you both joy.
Most of my relationships scratch that... All of my relationships were codependent.
It stems from so many places but I think from the beginning I wanted to be saved from the situation I was born into. As I got older that desire mixed with more and more anger. People wouldn't look at me and squeal with delight "What a cute little girl!" Like I saw with other little girls who were not neglected. People would turn away or look with disgust or pity but none of it good.
Older still I found relationships with controlling abusive men who would constantly criticize and I would try to be what they wanted and the more I tried the more abusive they became. They were how I abused myself. I too emotionally abandoned my children. I would get so depressed, I had nothing to give.
My husband who passed away had been emotionally abused by controlling women all his life and I was so easy to please. He was my hero, my professor Higgins and my idolization of him made him feel great and he loved encouraging me. I had never known what it was to be treated decent. I'm blessed to have had that time. It worked great. Until it didn't . It will be one year tomorrow since he died. He betrayed me, not simply by dying oh no, he actually kicked my ass worse than any of the others and never yelled at me let alone hit me.
So stop beating yourself up. You are not alone and you make mistakes. It's how we learn.
But if you don't learn from those mistakes, the lessons will get tougher and come in different forms and leave you with bigger and bigger messes to clean up. So both of you save yourselves from unimaginable asskicking decades from now and do the work.
I really wish you both joy.
UnKnown-Self
Diamond Member
One more thing, words like fault and blame .... Are abusive words... And don't look at yourself critically..
Be honest, own your mistakes, make amends if you can but don't let anyone beat you with a guilt stick, not even your children and that is tough. Validate their experience, each other's pain then move on. Don't ...well work on not revisiting it. You deserve a fresh start but you have to take it. :hug:
Be honest, own your mistakes, make amends if you can but don't let anyone beat you with a guilt stick, not even your children and that is tough. Validate their experience, each other's pain then move on. Don't ...well work on not revisiting it. You deserve a fresh start but you have to take it. :hug:
- Admin
- #30
anthony
Founder
Good marriage counsellors are a dime a dozen... no shortage of them. Google marriage counsellor close to you and you will find them quickly.
It is trauma therapists that aren't created equal, they're the ones that take a lot of research, trial and error.
It is trauma therapists that aren't created equal, they're the ones that take a lot of research, trial and error.
- Admin
- #31
anthony
Founder
That is for Ray to fix, not you.
Why?
Assumptions are the cause of all f*ckups, because you're thinking on behalf of another. Do you know what Ray is thinking?
Have you asked him why?
To be perfectly honest, I don't believe codependency is the issue here. Your trauma @mary1979 is the cause of your current problems, and @Bigray79 has no idea what the hell to do with you from his side of the equation as your partner. Men want to fix things, and he can't fix you. That is for him to work on though... you have to work on you Mary.
Whilst marriage counselling may provide you a level of assistance, I believe I read you are separated at present, is that right? You live apart?
If that is the case, you need to focus on you Mary, healing your trauma, and Ray needs to focus on what he has to learn to support you correctly, which means a mixture of support without enabling behaviour.
Adding marriage counselling may hinder trauma processing, whilst it would benefit Ray, it may not benefit you Mary at this time. Trauma has a rapid way to discarding all the noise in your life, making you feel overloaded, when the concentration isn't at the root of the problem.
If your marriage was the root of the problem, then marriage counselling would be the solution, but that is not the root of the problem.
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- #32
anthony
Founder
If your target is to enhance your relationship, whilst both individually seeking therapy / education for your individual aspects, my recommendations for therapy would be: CBT conjoint therapy for PTSD or Emotionally focused couple therapy for PTSD. You can basically use those two terms as the literal therapy types in discussion with therapists when looking for a couple based solution.
Outside of those two, you would be adding noise to the equation and losing focus on the issues. Mary would still require specific trauma therapy aside to this if you don't want to discuss trauma specific with Ray present.
Outside of those two, you would be adding noise to the equation and losing focus on the issues. Mary would still require specific trauma therapy aside to this if you don't want to discuss trauma specific with Ray present.
Y
Yep, back to cbt for me definitely.
I've been able to use it effectively in the past, in fact it was the only technique employed for my symptoms at the time (1990's) there's so many other options now its almost overwhelming!
And you are right in saying that my hang ups are the root cause.
I'm drowning in bs now I've started to look myself in the eye sober.
Also, I swing from ridiculously independent (the start of our issues) to hysterically codependant (resulting issues after Ray throwing his hands in the air and moving out)
His issues with us are basic, he needs to feel like a man, that he can provide for and protect his family.
I didn't allow that for the longest time, and by the time I 'got it', he'd given up and become a bachelor again.
So those adjustments will need to happen, once I've calmed the hell down maybe.
I'm a basket case. I know it.
Yep, back to cbt for me definitely.
I've been able to use it effectively in the past, in fact it was the only technique employed for my symptoms at the time (1990's) there's so many other options now its almost overwhelming!
And you are right in saying that my hang ups are the root cause.
I'm drowning in bs now I've started to look myself in the eye sober.
Also, I swing from ridiculously independent (the start of our issues) to hysterically codependant (resulting issues after Ray throwing his hands in the air and moving out)
His issues with us are basic, he needs to feel like a man, that he can provide for and protect his family.
I didn't allow that for the longest time, and by the time I 'got it', he'd given up and become a bachelor again.
So those adjustments will need to happen, once I've calmed the hell down maybe.
I'm a basket case. I know it.
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- #34
Sideways
VIP Member
@mary1979 - if you were a basket case, you wouldn't have a fraction of the insight that you've got.
My hunch, from your posts, is that you've done an amazing amount of healing that you don't give yourself credit for. And even if I'm wrong about that, I know (fact) from your posts that you are not, by any stretch of the imagination, a "basket case":)
My hunch, from your posts, is that you've done an amazing amount of healing that you don't give yourself credit for. And even if I'm wrong about that, I know (fact) from your posts that you are not, by any stretch of the imagination, a "basket case":)
Thank you @Ragdollcircus, your faith in me gives me a little hope.
I get so bloody confused.
Switched on me is totally overwhelmed with it all and so I switch off and then decide its all my imagination, attention seeking or dramatising, nothing wrong with me that a good sleep wont fix ;)
Writing here has shown me how much I take on board as 'my fault' or my responsibility.
I'm way too fkn hard on myself and have some unrealistic expectations of where i should be at, I rarely take into account all I've been through and just tell myself to harden the hell up and get on with it. Which I fail miserably at actually doing lol
Until about 12 hours ago, I hadn't allowed myself to look back at my relationship with my kids Dad and say you know what? That was almost as screwed up as your childhood, no wonder you aren't all 'healed', you got a whole new set of issues to work out from that now as well, and you're still carrying your Mothers ass like you have since birth (she is moving in with me soon, 2 dogs, 40 years of depression and anxiety and still refusing to speak ill of her husband, my abuser, to boot. This could get interesting.
I was not given the tools to defend myself in childhood, I walked straight out of one disaster and into another all prepared and pre programmed to be treated like dirt and blame myself for it.
Kind of looking forward to learning how to go easy on myself for a while, I think I deserve to cut myself some slack finally
AND MY DAUGHTER IS TALKING TO ME!!
Not getting ahead of myself, baby steps, but she came home 2 days in a row (first I've seen of her in 3 weeks) and we talked like normal.
Gosh how I've missed her :)
- Moderator
- #36
Sideways
VIP Member
@mary1979 - we started today with "omg, I don't even HAVE ptsd", and then after a while we decided that we've actually blitzed straight past ptsd to basket case status...
I like this version a lot better. This is a much better version to end the day on...And it's great news about your daughter:)
I like this version a lot better. This is a much better version to end the day on...And it's great news about your daughter:)
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