Drawing That Line.

[Air]

How about you @Air, what is your personal line in the sand?

Working on that honestly, I don't really know. There are just so many factors, I'm not sure I can come up with one firm answer. Like I think yelling could be abuse if it happens really excessively, but a little bit is definitely not, so to actually know I'd have to measure the frequency, length of yelling, decibels, and know why it was happening. Similarly a time out isn't abusive obviously, but I think making a child do a time out for like 5 hours would be, so I don't know where the cut off point is there too, and it would also depend on the circumstances. There are some things though that I think are just inherently abusive without a gradient, like hitting your kid out of anger, or purposefully insulting them. Generally I think there are some things that are clearly abusive, and some things clearly aren't, and there's just this massive grey area in the center. It's not much help I know, but that's the problem, it's just so vague.

And yeah I am a survivor of child abuse btw.

 

[mary1979]

Working on that honestly, I don't really know. There are just so many factors, I'm not sure I can come up w...

I agree with most of your sentiments.

I didn't like time out or isolation for my kids much either, rare occurrence.

I always found appealing to my kids conscience the best method.
'do you realise how it makes such and such feel when you take their toy? Do you like it when you feel that way?'

My 20 yr old tells me now though that this was damaging for her, she carries guilt to long and feels responsible for others
So I think my method was still a fail.

 

[Air]

Well we can't all be successes at everything unfortunately, though in terms of methods I feel like that would be generally good. I can see where she's coming from so maybe good to use in a bit of moderation, but I feel in general it would teach empathy. I don't plan on having children, but if I do I'll keep the appealing to conscience and the guilt causing part in mind.

 

[mary1979]

Well we can't all be successes at everything unfortunately, though in terms of methods I feel like that wou...

No children? :(

 

[Air]

No children? :(

I don't know, maybe. It just doesn't appeal to me somehow, I accept that might change as I get older though. I might be more into fostering at some point, I feel like I'd be making a bit more of a positive change and adoption could be an option. This would all be years down the road though, I'm really not into that kind of responsibility right now if ever.

 

[mary1979]

A

I don't know, maybe. It just doesn't appeal to me somehow, I accept that might change as I get older though...

Ah you are very young.

Plenty of time, once you sort this dreaded ptsd out :)

 

[shimmerz]

Abuse that YOU yourself will not tolerate?

To me, abuse is in the intention. But then again, not all abusive actions are pre-meditated. So I will add, as a qualifier, that if I express that someone feels abusive to me, that I am not then slammed for being 'ssssoooooo sensitive' or an equally minimizing statement.

Perhaps it comes down to basic power exchange stuff. If I say to someone that what they are saying is hurtful/disempowering to me, then I expect them to back off. If they don't. then I most likely won't be in their space very often. Like.ever.

As a mother, I did have to spank my children at times. They always knew that X=spanking (always controlled, always spoken about beforehand). When spoken about btw, it was always discussed as to what alternative options (positive) they had in the future so that they wouldn't get stuck in a negative behavioural pattern. They were not trapped.

Sorry, rambling....

 

[mary1979]

To me, abuse is in the intention. But then again, not all abusive actions are pre-meditated. So I wi...

Nope, not rambling
thats me ;)

Thank you for your input @shimmerz, you ladies with a few years more than me under your belt have proved to be my most valuable resource here.

Intent?
This is interesting.

Do you believe that loss of self control is reasonable excuse for name calling or shouting, then? Because there would seem no intent if the persons just lost their shit and ranting?

How would you tell the difference between someone trying to control another with abuse, and just lost temper?

Also, I agree. Learned the long hard way that not all spanking is child abuse

Another line I failed to draw.
My mother would beat for random reasons, sometimes cos her coffee was cold.
So I went the opposite extreme swearing never to spank.

I may have saved my youngest daughter 2 years of hell when she started her education though if id just been firmer and set better boundaries at the beginning.
I dont like it, but I respect parents who discipline their kids effectively.

 

[Friday]

Only touching on this piece for a moment :

You only have 2 choices with teaching empathy to children: Cause them mental/emotional pain (guilt & shaming), or cause them physical pain (corporal punishment). If you go with the 3rd option? Cause them no pain whatsoever? Very predictable result : Psychopathy/Sociopathy or Failure To Thrive.

Both kinds of pain can be applied intentionally with love/care/understanding, or abusively/neglectfully.

It's not that we cause our children pain that determines abuse. It's how & why we cause our children pain that matters.

 

[shimmerz]

Do you believe that loss of self control is reasonable excuse for name calling or shouting, then? Because there would seem no intent if the persons just lost their shit and ranting?

I believe that loss of control is treading dangerously in the territory of someone grasping for control. So, no, I don't believe it is reasonable. Human, perhaps, but not reasonable. I myself don't yell. I don't deal well with yelling either.

I have a new person in my life (not an SO) that yells. A lot. He won't last long around me.... I am certain he is not an abusive person, but his actions FEEL abusive to me. So he and I can disagree as to how I will allow him to speak to me, but I still get the final say. Not sure if that makes any sense or not.

As far as your daughter and her accusing you of being the cause of her guilt complex. Could be different things. The Catholic church.school upbringing did a number on my feeling guilty about everything and anything.

In proper balance, having a conscience isn't a bad thing. It will do her well later in life. She will be self governing, not needing someone to berate her into doing the right things. I wouldn't take an awful lot of a pre-parent child's criticism to heart. My middle son is fighting with his son right now about brushing teeth as it has become more urgent after his son had 4 upper teeth pulled due to cavities. There is a global perspective that he is now seeing that comes with parenting. He is looking out for his best interests and having to force my grandson to 'do what he is told' for my grandson's better good.

Your daughter may thank you one day when she realizes that many parents would have hit first and asked questions later. She will see how impressive your line of thinking and dedication to NOT abusing her actually was. All in all, feeling guilty is much easier to work on for her than most of the people's stories here.

 

[mary1979]

@FridayJones and @shimmerz, thank you both for your reassurances.

My 20 year old has much to learn yeah.
When she began counselling for her issues one of her therapists decided her symptoms were obviously caused by me or her father abusing her.
She's learned a lot of behaviours second hand from me, and her father was for a short time emotionally abusive toward her also.

I was very proud when she stood up the the therapist and explained it all for what it was, before that I think she had blamed me for a lot, also learned behaviour from her dad.
I think its a natural part of growing up to look at your parents mistakes and say 'this is something I will never do with my own children!' And be kind of extreme about it also.

Mostly my kids had to grow up to soon, and also grew up alongside of me (I was 16 when my first was born)
They had too much on their shoulders, and I failed them by not making healthy choices in my relationship with their Dad.

They believe I am making the same bad choices with my husband, and I do not trust my judgement at all.

So confused.

 

[Friday]

To you, personally (not what any law dictates) what constitutes abuse?
Abuse that YOU yourself will not tolerate?
Where do you say, ok what you have done/said is unacceptable and i won't have it.
Is it yelling?
Name calling?
Being restrained?
Being demanded of something in the bedroom by a long term partner that they know you wont like?
If as a woman you hit, do you expect to be hit back?

All avenues of thought. I am curious to hear others thoughts.

1) The bolded section above... IMO That's one of the things that abuse f*cks with the hardest. Because a thing soooooooo does not have to be abusive to be unacceptable. All kinds of perfectly normal, completely not abusive, actions / behaviors / personalities / traits/ etc. can be beyond my personal line in the sand of what I am willing tolerate in my life.


2) To myself personally, what constitutes abuse? A pattern of unwarranted attacks.

Okay, so what's warranted? ;) A few of my house-rules / what I teach my kids (and, yep, I've actually codified these and other House-Rules by writing them on the dang walls, as well as repeating them ad naseam. Any kid who has lived with me can recite them chapter & verse). :

• When is it okay to attack someone else? Defending yourself, someone else, & learning how to fight.
• Rudeness is attacking someone without touching them. Same rule apply.
• When is it okay to yell? When there's danger, or you're far away.

You might notice I didn't include disciplinary action in the above. That's because there's a huge difference between discipline & attacking someone. IMO They're entirely unrelated to each other.