How Do You Typically Feel When You Leave A Session?

[DogwoodTree]

People being honest with me, does.

That doesn't mean they have to be a dick about it. But I'll form a connection a helluva lot faster with an honest asshole, than someone who pussyfoots around the truth, or how they see things.

@Friday I've been thinking about this a lot. Let me see if I can form it into an intelligible question...pardon the rambling.

My mom has always been very critical, but mostly in a subtle, manipulative sort of way. It's like a "nice" critical, except it still does a lot of damage, maybe even more so because it isn't obvious that she's being so harsh and picking on things that aren't her right to pick on. She does a lot of gaslighting and minimization, that kind of thing.

So I've been working a lot lately on identifying how I do these things to people, too...how I deny their experience of reality by trying to convince them that my perceptions or my standards or my preferences are more right than theirs. I want to learn to honor other people's experiences of reality, and fully realize that my experience and judgment of reality is just as limited and biased as anyone else's.

But I'm also working to reduce the ways I'm "nice" to people instead of being present and real with them.

So then it feels like I'm pushing against myself on two fronts that are at odds with each other. How do I become less nice, more honest, less critical, and more accepting...all at the same time?

I've ended up letting the push for being more honest take a backseat to the push for being less critical. Between being nice and being critical, being nice seems to me to be the lesser of two evils. At that point, though, it's really easy to fall into a spiral of relativity where there are no absolute truths, no objective "right" and "wrong," and for an aspie, that's an existential crisis of epic proportions.

So I guess what I'm wondering is...how do you keep your focus on being honest without falling into being critical, pushy, judgmental, or manipulative? How do you know when to call people on their shit without imposing your own paradigm and standards onto others?

(I hope that makes sense. I haven't fully thought it through yet.)

 

[scout86]

I don't have much time right now but.... I think what seems dangerous is that he wants to know how I really think and feel and he's a scary good guesser sometimes. And some part of me believes that if anyone knew the real me, I'd be dead. (I never said that made sense.)

You know, it's probably possible to be nice and honest at the same time. Also nice and critical at the same time. Motives matter. If someone asks if they look fat in that outfit, and they DO look fatter than they have to, the nice thing to do might be to be honest and say so. (I wouldn't suggest trying that with your mother. she's a whole different deal and you'll get a whole different result. My point, I guess, it's that it's important to remember not to use your mother as the yard stick for measuring human behavior. She's not typical. (Fortunately)

 

[Nessa7]

I'm an INFP that has become open to the possibility that I'm actually a mentally ill ENFP. I think that your therapist really does like you. I happen to really like INTPs. I think that we make a really great pair for getting stuff done. They make a good team. For _NFPs, it is really easy for us to see the best in people. We want to like everyone, and it upsets us when we don't.

 

[Chiqui]

Niceness, affection, generosity...all of these have been used as covers for covert manipulation and abuse.

Yep! I think I chase away nice, loving, generous people for this reason.

 

[DogwoodTree]

I think that your therapist really does like you. I happen to really like INTPs. ... For _NFPs, it is really easy for us to see the best in people. We want to like everyone, and it upsets us when we don't.

This is a helpful insight, thank you. I'll have to think on this.

My mom is a very unhealthy INFP, and she doesn't always find the best in people. In fact, she tends to project her worst onto other people. Even people she treats kindly, she'll talk critically about them when they're not around. There are a few people she idealizes, but that's not the same thing as finding the best in people.

My T is a healthy ENFP, though, so maybe I can mentally accept that he doesn't think of people in the same ways my mom does.

 

[Nessa7]

This is a helpful insight, thank you. I'll have to think on this.

My mom is a very unhealthy INFP,...

From what I've read about your mother, I can see her being an INFP that made everything her ideology, which is really bad for an INFP. One of the worst things about INFPs is that they can get caught up in an Us vs. Them way of thinking. Most INFPs would become a massive snob, go through a phase of being a really annoying teenager, or incorporate their chosen cause into every possible conversation. We're more likely to be a pushy vegan or be really pedantic about explaining our chosen constitutional amendment.

Your mother combined that with an INFP's ability to manipulate to get a very unhealthy way of seeing other people. A healthy INFP is going to think there is something good in everyone and be very understanding of different ways of communicating and relating to people. We're more likely to criticize ourselves than someone else, unless we are massively overreacting to someone criticizing us first.

 

[DogwoodTree]

I can see her being an INFP that made everything her ideology, which is really bad for an INFP. One of the worst things about INFPs is that they can get caught up in an Us vs. Them way of thinking. <snip> ...incorporate their chosen cause into every possible conversation. <snip> Your mother combined that with an INFP's ability to manipulate to get a very unhealthy way of seeing other people.

Wow, you really nailed her. Yes, everything she talks about is related to her ideology and spirituality. She can't really carry on a conversation about anything without turning it into some kind of spiritual lesson. And everyone either falls into the category "they get it and they're on board" or "they're lost and confused and possibly downright evil." She's a masterful manipulator, and yet she has a serious blind spot that can be used to manipulate her in return: her need for adoration.

Most INFPs would become a massive snob, go through a phase of being a really annoying teenager

I don't think she got to go through this as a teen--her father was very abusive as well. And as much as I've talked about the abusive things she does to me and other people, she came by it as "honestly" as the rest of us. She had a crazy-rough childhood, and yet she's made some giant strides in the right direction on some significant issues.

When I talk about her with my DH or with my T, I often point out that she made the first steps at a generational level away from "the way things were." Even though she couldn't accomplish full recovery in one generation, she contributed some very valuable courage and shifts to the process. It'll probably take 3-4 generations to get us to real freedom and health, and she took those first steps for her generation. What would be helpful is for her to recognize that she accomplished part of this multi-generational process instead of trying to convince everyone that she's completed the process all on her single-generational watch.

 

[NowYouSeeMe]

Do you tend to feel better or worse than when you went in? Are your sessions typically comforting o...

Yesterday after therapy I felt worse. Usually I leave feeling lost and with a sense of not saying what I needed to. It was the first time of talking through the trauma with T yesterday though. I Felt quite spaced out in session and went home and slept. I woke up and things got kind of dark. I Felt restless, had a strong compulsion to self harm and kind of did, I also couldn't get certain thoughts about ending my life out of my head. It's taken all of Thursday/Friday but I do feel better today. I have attachment difficulties and I find speaking to a T difficult. I'm in the uk using an nhs service and know therapy is very time limited. It's hard to open up to T in ways I have never done in my life knowing in a few weeks I'll be discharged and not see them anymore. My T is also male and I find it odd to speak with a man, especially in his age range. It's an unnatural pairing for me. I'm actually kind of scared of him. However he is lovely bloke and seems very compassionate. I guess for you the sense of distance may be due to your ASD. Have you ever had help to recognise your emotions and link them to words to help you verbalise them? This may be helpful. I don't have ASD but I am really struggling to recognise how I feel and articulate it. The trauma could be making feeling connected worse because it's messing with your emotions? I have lots of empathy for you DogwoodTree, it's not a nice place to be in. Take care X

 

[DogwoodTree]

Yesterday after therapy I felt worse. Usually I leave feeling lost and with a sense of not saying what I needed to. It was the first time of talking through the trauma with T yesterday though.

Do you think this is more due to the time-limited nature of your therapy, or more because of attachment issues for you, or more because of the mismatch with your T?

Have you ever had help to recognise your emotions and link them to words to help you verbalise them?

Yes, we've worked on this a lot. It was a revelation for me that emotions are linked to physical sensations in my body. I still have a hard time putting words to the emotions themselves--expressing emotions in any way, shape, or form just doesn't work well for me. But I have gotten better at identifying them for myself, and then in journaling I can explore where those emotions are coming from and what questions I need to be asking in order to address them.

The trauma could be making feeling connected worse because it's messing with your emotions?

Thing is, we've actually not talked much about the trauma. I suspect T thinks I'm still not stable enough--our relationship still isn't secure enough. We've briefly talked about why we haven't addressed the trauma head-on yet, but I get embarrassed easily on this topic, feeling like I'm pushing for something T doesn't want to cover yet, and even though we've talked about that, too, I still haven't worked through it. As T says, we work on stuff "around" the trauma. There are ongoing relationships today that need attention so that I can get through the day-to-day stuff. In seeing progress there, I think that's supposed to build a sense of safety in relationship with T. I guess. I'm not sure it's working, but I don't think it's hurting to make progress on that other stuff instead of addressing the trauma.

At yesterday's session, I attempted to give up on the idea of "connection" and simply work on "being present" in the conversation. It was a flop, but I think it's going to take some practice. It seems that I can either "play the part" of being social and carry on a conversation and pretend to be somewhat normal, or I can try to be myself in a conversation and end up nearly non-communicative. I don't know how to be "present" and be functional at the same time. There's too much data to process and analyze...there are too many rules to follow in order to carry a conversation...my sense of my "self" is too deep inside to be connected with myself and with the outside at the same time. I really hate the way I show up in a conversation when I'm trying to be authentically me...when I'm trying to present my inner experience to the outer world. So then the toxic shame floods in and I can't think anymore and I lose any sense of perspective. Then I go off by myself and cry and feel miserable. And the whole effort at "connection" turns into such horrible loneliness and isolation that I wonder why I even exist. It's much more "stabilizing" to avoid people altogether.

 

[NowYouSeeMe]

I have really difficulty saying what I need and how I feel so it's probably my fault I leave feeling lost and like I didn't get to say what I wanted. does your t know much about ASD and ways to support? Maybe you could benefit from a t who specialises in trauma in people with asd? X

 

[DogwoodTree]

I have really difficulty saying what I need and how I feel

Yeah, this is hard to do. Do you know what you need and how you feel and then don't say it, or do you not know what you need/feel until later? My T has asked me many times what I need from him or from DH. Problem is, I don't have a clue what I need from them. Nothing feels like it helps.

Maybe you could benefit from a t who specialises in trauma in people with asd?

I've only found a couple of Ts around here who advertise working with ASD at all. One isn't taking new clients, and the other has added a whole bunch of items to their list of specialties, which seems like it couldn't actually be a specialty...just something they're willing to work with.

Anyway, I think my AS is high functioning enough and the trauma fallout is severe enough that it's probably better to be with a T who focuses more on trauma recovery. Plus, my T primarily uses CBT, which is supposed to be one of the best therapies for aspies.

 

[NowYouSeeMe]

I go between the two, sometimes I know what I need to say but don't say it. My T is also a CBT practitioner so I feel sometimes he focuses on the re-programming thoughts but I need is to be able to say a bit more about the bad thoughts themselves. I don't know. It's weird.